The Catholic Church says that the non Catholic is going to Hell.lt says this in its Magisterial texts before and after Vatican Council II.The non Catholic and non Christian need to convert into the one, true church in which God wants all humanity to be united (CCC 845).
In a discussion with a non Catholic, I am asked : 'so are you telling me that I am going to Hell'? at which I reply No for it is not within my power or abilities to judge you. What I am saving is that the only known way for salvation is to be a member of the Catholic Church, being properly baptized and die free from mortal sin.
Lionel:
Yes he is going to Hell since the Church says so and not because you and I can judge him personally.
The Church says so in Vatican Council II.
It says all need faith and baptism for salvation and this non Catholic does not have it.
It says so in the Catechsim of the Catholic Chruch 846 that all need to enter the Church as through a door and cites AG 7.
It says so in CCC 845. God wants all people to be united in the Catholic Church for salvation and the Church is the only Ark of Noah that saved in the flood.
It says so in three defined dogmas including Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.
This message is repeated in the Syllabus of Errors, Mystici Corporis, Redemptoris Missio, Dominius Iesus 20, the CDF,Notification on Fr.Jacques Dupuis etc.
It is also repeated in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 when it is realized that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance,mentioned in the Letter, does not contradict the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
Lionel:
Yes he is going to Hell since the Church says so and not because you and I can judge him personally.
The Church says so in Vatican Council II.
It says all need faith and baptism for salvation and this non Catholic does not have it.
It says so in the Catechsim of the Catholic Chruch 846 that all need to enter the Church as through a door and cites AG 7.
It says so in CCC 845. God wants all people to be united in the Catholic Church for salvation and the Church is the only Ark of Noah that saved in the flood.
It says so in three defined dogmas including Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.
This message is repeated in the Syllabus of Errors, Mystici Corporis, Redemptoris Missio, Dominius Iesus 20, the CDF,Notification on Fr.Jacques Dupuis etc.
It is also repeated in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 when it is realized that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance,mentioned in the Letter, does not contradict the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
-Lionel Andrades
(from comments You are either a Feeneyite or a Cushingite. http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/08/you-are-either-feeneyite-or-cushingite.html )
Posts
8 comments:
Lionel said:
" Yes he is going to Hell since the Church says so and not because you and I can judge him personally"
This sentence is contradictory. It is absolutely true that there is No Salvation outside the Catholic Church and that a person would be destined for hell. But when you say correctly that I can not judge him/her personally you should finish the sentence and say that only God can judge and that is why we do not know if he/her IS IN HELL. That is the part of God's mercies that you clearly refuse to accept as Church teaching.
JMJ,
You are picking and choosing and leaving out that which does not support your stance. Why di you NOT quote:
"847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
If you believe in Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance as you say you do why do you deny that which the Church recognizes as falling under the unknown mercies of God??? Judgement is not yours to predict. Teach the faith that all must be Catholic with no exceptions and do not cross the line of going against the will of God. You hold a very dangerous position. Father Feeney said leave the mercies to God and do not omit the quotes from Father that acknowledge His mercies that are personal, one on one and unknown to us.
JMJ,
George Brenner
But when you say correctly that I can not judge him/her personally you should finish the sentence and say that only God can judge and that is why we do not know if he/her IS IN HELL
Lionel:
He is going to Hell since the Church says he is going to Hell in the many magisterial documents I have cited.
You agree that you cannot judge this non Catholic you meet.So the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are irrelevant.
You and I cannot judge this non Catholic whom we meet based on our personal knowedlge and judgement, but we judge that he is going to Hell based on the teaching of the Catholic Church inspired by the Holy Spirit.
This is the difference between divine knowledge and human knowledge which St.Paul mentions in the Letter to the Corinthians.
we do not know if he/her IS IN HELL
Lionel:
I personally do not know who is in Hell since I have not been given the grace which many saints had to seen who is in Hell, in which part of Hell, and in which part of their body they are being tortured the most.
"847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Lionel:
Numerous times I have written that I accept that ' Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.'They are referred to as cases in 'invincible ignorance'.
Also quite a few times you have said that we cannot see such cases in personal life.
So they are possibilities. Yes.
Since we cannot see them or meet them on earth they are not exceptions to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
So in proclaming the dogma this point must be acknowledged.Otherwise it leads to confusion and error.
If you believe in Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance as you say you do why do you deny that which the Church recognizes as falling under the unknown mercies of God???
Lionel:
I recognize that these persons with the baptism of desire and invincible ignroance could be saved by a God who is Merciful; they would be 'falling under the unknown mercies of God', unknown to us and known to Him.
Teach the faith that all must be Catholic with no exceptions
Lionel:
Agreed!
Lionel:
I recognize that these persons with the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance could be saved by a God who is Merciful; they would be 'falling under the unknown mercies of God', unknown to us and known to Him.
George:
If you truly believe this then we agree on everything.
This sentence of yours is the exact point that I am Making. end of story.
JMJ,
George Brenner
Post a Comment