If someone says criticially "Your a Feeneyite" it would indicate that he or she is a Cushingite and is not aware of it. This has been my experience.One is either a Feeneyite or a Cushingite in the interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Cushingism is irrational and something new added to the Deposit of the Faith.Feeneyism is traditional and does not claim that we can see the dead on earth saved with the baptism of desire and who are supposedly visible exceptions to the need for all to convert visibly into the Cathoic Chruch in 2013.
A Feeneyite is in prefect agreement with Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church -without the Cushing error of being able to see the dead.
Pope Benedict,Archbishop Gerhard Muller , the SSPX bishops and priests ,the sedevacantists(CMRI,MHFM) and Pontifical Univferity professors are Cushingites.
Pope Francis was a Feenyite when he said that we cannot find Jesus outside the Church.He also cited St.Ignatius of Loyola , a Feeneyite.
However he was a Cushingite in the last joint encyclical with Pope Benedict , when he stated Christians (Protestants and Orthodox Christians) have ecclesial faith.
Cushingism is heresy since it rejects the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, it changes the Nicence Creed to 'I believe in three known baptisms for the forgiveness of sin' and it rejects the Athanasius Creed with the new understanding,'Outside the the Church there is known salvation'.
It changes the Catholic teaching on morals by assuming that 'deliberate consent' and 'full knowledge ' are factors in rejecting and identifying mortal sin in general.
Lionel Andrades
Posts
30 comments:
Vatican II official teaching is accurate and protected by the Holy Ghost.
===================================
Vatican II implementation has been one of love, kisses and charity but has excluded truth and the absolute need and certainty of conversion to the Catholic Faith. In a sense the Church has loved many to their eternal death by withholding and/or being silent on NO Salvation Outside the Catholic church.
===================================
Conclusion: by the very fact that by almost all Church heirarcy not teaching that all need to the Catholic Faith they have all but guaranteed that other faiths and non faiths are paths to Salvation. You would think by now that one Pope would have clarified this eternal misconception of centuries of faithful church teaching on Salvation..... and thus the crisis of Faith.
JMJ,
George Brenner
Vatican II implementation has been one of love, kisses and charity but has excluded truth and the absolute need and certainty of conversion to the Catholic Faith. In a sense the Church has loved many to their eternal death by withholding and/or being silent on NO Salvation Outside the Catholic church.
Lionel:
Even the traditonalists, SSPX and Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are using Cushingism in the interpretation of Vatican Council II.
Once they affirm Vatican Council II accoding to Feenyism and not Cushingism, the Vatican Curia will have to respond to them.
From Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary website:
"Living True Devotion in Community, the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary consecrate themselves every day using the formula written by Saint Louis Marie De Montfort.
The Order, consisting of Religious Brothers and Religious Sisters, was started by Father Leonard Feeney in 1949 and re-founded by Brother Hugh MacIsaac in 1976.
Realizing that Evangelization needs Doctrine, and that Doctrine needs Tradition, catechesis, along with the Latin Tridentine Mass, is the base of our apostolates. It is the mission of the Order to defend and spread the Truths of the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded exclusively by Jesus Christ."
"Mark 16:16 - Baptism is required in order to be saved"
The ordinary magisterium of the Church has openly taught the three-fold Baptism (water, desire and blood) since the earliest days of the Church, and never has this teaching ever been condemned by the Catholic Church throughout the entire history of the Church.
The First Vatican Council commands that all Catholics must believe what the ordinary magisterium of the Church teaches, therefore no Catholic can deny the doctrines Baptism of Desire, or Baptism of Blood.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
With that being said there is no contradiction or excuse for Those in the Catholic Church to teach for all times that a person must be baptized with water, be a practicing member of the One , Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and die free from mortal sin in order to enter purgatory and/or Heaven.
Baptism of Desire and Invincible ignorance are not known on earth to men otherwise those who die in those states would be declared saints by the Church. Furthermore baptism of Desire does not translate into Salvation of Desire as has been erroneously promoted during the last many decades.
Case in point: A non Catholic Male in a mixed marriage is found to be unfaithful and as part of the reconciliation agrees to become Catholic. But before He can be baptized he dies in a car accident. Did he obtain baptism of Desire? Did he obtain Salvation? These situations are in the hands of God and the very reason we must teach that All must be baptized with water and belong to the Catholic Church. Look what has happened to the Catholic Church since we have all but ceased to teach this certainty.
JMJ,
George Brenner
One can interpret Vatican Council II with Cushingism or Feeneyism. Which of the two do you think the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are using ?
Cushingism emerges with the interpretation of the baptism of desire etc.
Do the community of Fr.Leonard Feeney interpret the baptism of desire as being explicit for us or implicit for us ?
Similarly do they believe that being saved in invincible ignorance followed by the baptism of water is explicit for us or implicit for us?
Do they assume that LG 16 (invincible ignorance ) is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
he ordinary magisterium of the Church has openly taught the three-fold Baptism (water, desire and blood) since the earliest days of the Church, and never has this teaching ever been condemned by the Catholic Church throughout the entire history of the Church.
Lionel:
The Church has openly taught the three-fold Baptism (water, desire and blood) since the earliest days of the Church,yes, George, but the Church has never assumed or implied that those saved with the baptim of desire or blood can be judged by us. The Chuch has never said that these cases are visible for us. It has never said that these cases are personally known to us.
So is Vatican Council II in perfect agreement with Tradition and the dogma on salvation when it says all need faith and baptism for salvation(AG 7) and we know there are no known exceptions mentioned in the Council ?
Is the Council in perfect agreement with Fr.Leonard Feeney on the issue of extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
This is the position of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Worcester and Manchester,USA ?
From my personal experience I believe that most if not all of the followers of Father Feeney would say that..."No one alive can boast or declare, "I'm a Catholic and I've been baptized by desire." .....Therefore those cases (BOD?) in regards to Salvation are in the hands of God and do not preclude Catholics to teach baptism by water and No Salvation outside the Catholic Church to ALL.
JMJ,
George Brenner
From my personal experience I believe that most if not all of the followers of Father Feeney would say that..."No one alive can boast or declare, "I'm a Catholic and I've been baptized by desire." .....Therefore those cases (BOD?) in regards to Salvation are in the hands of God and do not preclude Catholics to teach baptism by water and No Salvation outside the Catholic Church to ALL.
Lionel:
Yes!
However all if not most would say that Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Lionel:
Yes!
However all if not most would say that Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
That is what we truly do not know for sure for if all would say that VCII contradicts the dogma ECNS it must follow that by definition they would concur that VCII was an illicit Council and would have to consider themselves sede vacanist which a position never employed by Father Feeney.
Just as Cardinal Arinze says that altar girls were and are a mistake so too are the countless miss applications and implementations of VCII. The babel and rampant abuses in the liturgy and catechesis were due to the works of the devil that were not remedied by the VCII Popes. The Council was valid but the results were a disaster.
Baptism of Desire as a possible mercy by God was distorted into accepting all religions as channels and paths to Salvation either by implication or worse by deed. Now the problem is that since generations in time have passed the collection baskets would all but dry up for teaching the truth that Father Feeney defended. The rebuke of Father Feeney is the epicenter and subsequent punishment that we have endured for not being Catholic. Why would you or anyone think that if we do not teach NSOCC that we could possibly get correct BOD and invincible ignorance?
The Church needs to become small again and restore orthodoxy. Even many of good will are in waiting for a leader. How many true Catholics are there? I am afraid to guess....and so we pray.
JMJ,
George Brenner
That is what we truly do not know for sure for if all would say that VCII contradicts the dogma ECNS it must follow that by definition they would concur that VCII was an illicit Council and would have to consider themselves sede vacanist which a position never employed by Father Feeney.
Lionel:
Vatican Council II contradicts the dogma if you are using Cushingism in the interpretation of the Council.
would have to consider themselves sede vacanist which a position never employed by Father Feeney. ù
Lionel:
The sedevacantists MHFM etc are using Cushingism in the interpretation of the dogma.
Just as Cardinal Arinze says that altar girls were and are a mistake so too are the countless miss applications and implementations of VCII.
lionel:
The implementations of Vatican Council II are based on Cushingism.
The Council was valid but the results were a disaster.
Lionel:
Do you think that the supporters of Fr.Leonard Feeney are interpreting the baptism of desire as being explicit for us or as being implicit for us ?
This is the fundamental issue.
Once this error is corrected the Council supports Fr.Leonard Feeney.
Lionel:
Do you think that the supporters of Fr.Leonard Feeney are interpreting the baptism of desire as being explicit for us or as being implicit for us ?
George: I could not know without talking to each and every one of them. Just like many priests are at odds, confused or silent on understanding NSOCC so too is the case for BOD and invincible Ignorance. All in the Catholic Church are obligated to teach and offer only Baptism by water and that outside the Catholic Church there is no Salvation. When and only when this is done can the Faith be restored to previous generations. Baptism by Desire is assumed to be Salvation by desire and this is clearly wrong and violates Church teaching. There is never a situation where anyone can be offered Salvation other than Baptism by water. The misunderstanding of baptism of desire as a possible mercy by God which we should pray and hope does happen is by not teaching No Salvation outside the Catholic Church and baptism by water in all situations. How could a person saved by baptism of desire possibly be known to us. If they were the Church would proclaim them saints by this state of death. Such has not been the case in the history of the Church. The incorrect teaching of BOD has eroded the faith to babel.
JMJ,
George Brenner
George: I could not know without talking to each and every one of them.
Lionel:
Are you in contact with the Priors at the St.Benedict Center in Manchester and Worcester, USA?
Just like many priests are at odds, confused or silent on understanding NSOCC so too is the case for BOD and invincible Ignorance.
Lionel:
The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary have a specific position on the baptism of desire.
When they extend this understanding of the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance, to Vatican Council II, do they assume these cases are explicit or implicit for us?
All in the Catholic Church are obligated to teach and offer only Baptism by water and that outside the Catholic Church there is no Salvation.
Lionel:
George, you are right all are obligated to teach and offer only the baptism of water and that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.However when the baptism of desire issue does not come up, is it considered implicit for us or visible for us?
Are the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary obligated to teach that Vatican Council II says outside the church there is no salvation, similar to the traditional interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney ?
Baptism by Desire is assumed to be Salvation by desire and this is clearly wrong and violates Church teaching. There is never a situation where anyone can be offered Salvation other than Baptism by water.
Lionel:
True this is the theological position of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
However if there was a case in which someone was saved without the baptism of water in a manner known only to God, does it contradict the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney?
If you say yes are you assuming that the baptism of desire is explicit and known to us in the present times in personal cases and so it is an exception to the dogma? Every one in the present times does not have to enter the Church?
If you say no are you assuming that the baptism of desire is implicit for us and visible only for God, and so it is not relevant to the traditional interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney? Since these cases are not visible and do not exist in our reality they could not be exceptions to every one needing to convert visibly into the Catholic Church (with faith and baptism) for salvation?
Lionel:
"However if there was a case in which someone was saved without the baptism of water in a manner known only to God, does it contradict the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney?
George : of course not. There can be no contradiction or there would not be a Catholic Church protected by the Holy Ghost.
George: Catholicism 101 for me:
Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and Invincible Ignorance are completely and totally irrelevant to the teaching mission of the Catholic Church to always and everywhere teach, preach, explain and instruct that there is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and that everyone must be baptized with water in the proper form and intention. Father Feeney explains very clearly in 'Bread of Life' that to teach the faith clearly in no way impedes any mercies extended by God in ways known to Him alone. Conversion of non Catholics is an obligation and direct command by Jesus to 'teach all that I have commanded you.'
I see the crisis of faith as being directly attributed to the rebuke of Father Feeney and allowing the influence of modernism to overtake all save a few. The likes of John Courtney Murray and Cardinal Cushing led to a very rapid internal decay and babel in Church teaching and reverence. They implied that non Catholics who seek God with a sincere heart are not in need of conversion and certainly implied that they can reasonably be counted among the saved as non Catholics. Many of the convoluted documents of VCII confused the faithful with a lack of clarity. We do not even know what Catholics who have died found themselves worthy of Heaven, let alone the earthly pre-determination as suggested by most of the eternal status of non Catholics; sheer nonsense.
Assumed Salvation took on a life of its own since VCII. The word "may' became "will" for the possibilities of non Catholics being saved. Our lack of urgency and obligation to teach the Catholic Faith as was done by Father Feeney has practically ceased to exist. The faith should be taught as if BOB, BOD and invincible ignorance did not exist since these are NOT forms of Salvation that we can offer to anyone. Those situations belong in the hands of God alone.
The mercies of God should be left to God exactly as Father Feeney said and we should teach the faith with clarity, passion, conviction and charity and not mislead non Catholics and ourselves as has been the case since VCII.
The Popes and heirarcy of VCII have been weak in their lack of corrective measures and leadership in resolving the mis interpretations of VCII and thus the rot and decay. It is if the emperor had no clothes. The great news is that this will be resolved.
In a discussion with a non Catholic, I am asked : 'so are you telling me that I am going to Hell'? at which I reply No for it is not within my power or abilities to judge you. What I am saving is that the only known way for salvation is to be a member of the Catholic Church, being properly baptized and die free from mortal sin.
And no God's mercies, excluding declared Sainthood and those baptized who die under the age of reason are not known to us on earth whether it be a Catholic or non Catholic who will all be judged by God. Salvation belongs in the loving and just hands of God and His mercies are never explicit to us unless Sainthood or those baptized under the age of reason have died.
JMJ,
George Brenner
In a discussion with a non Catholic, I am asked : 'so are you telling me that I am going to Hell'? at which I reply No for it is not within my power or abilities to judge you. What I am saving is that the only known way for salvation is to be a member of the Catholic Church, being properly baptized and die free from mortal sin.
Lionel:
Yes he is going to Hell since the Church says so and not because you and I can judge him personally.
The Church says so in Vatican Council II.
It says all need faith and baptism for salvation and this non Catholic does not have it.
It says so in the Catechsim of the Catholic Chruch 846 that all need to enter the Church as through a door and cites AG 7.
It says so in CCC 845. God wants all people to be united in the Catholic Church for salvation and the Church is the only Ark of Noah that saved in the flood.
It says so in three defined dogmas including Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.
This message is repeated in the Syllabus of Errors, Mystici Corporis, Redemptoris Missio, Dominius Iesus 20, the CDF,Notification on Fr.Jacques Dupuis etc.
It is also repeated in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 when it is realized that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance,mentioned in the Letter, does not contradict the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
Lionel said:
It is also repeated in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 when it is realized that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance,mentioned in the Letter, does not contradict the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
George said:
Absolutely true on this Earth, but this does not give you the right to draw the forgone conclusion that God does not extend his mercies to those unknown to us at the time of judgement for reasons known to God alone. Someone may have not been Catholic on earth but if they attain Salvation they most certainly be Catholic in Heaven. Otherwise you do not understand the possible mercies of God who is not bound by His sacraments. Teach the faith and leave the mercies to God as said by Father Feeney.
JMJ,
George Brenner
Leonard,
Please also read the following from Father Faber which so accurately portays the possibilities of Salvation Outside the Catholic Church as being bleak and reliant on the unknown mercies of God:
"If the Precious Blood had been shed, and yet we had no priesthood, no Sacraments, no jurisdiction, no sacramentals, no mystical life of the visible unity of the Church– life, so it seems, would be almost intolerable. This is the condition of those outside the Church; and certainly as we grow older, as our experience widens, as our knowledge of ourselves deepens, as our acquaintance with mankind increases, the less hopeful do our ideas become regarding the salvation of those outside the Roman Church. We make the most we can of the uncovenanted mercies of God, of the invisible soul of the Church, of the doctrine of invincible ignorance, of the easiness of making acts of contrition, and of the visible moral goodness among men; and yet what are these but straws in our own estimation, if our own chances of salvation had to lean their weight upon them? They wear out, or they break down. They are fearfully counterweighted by other considerations. We have to draw on our imaginations in order to fill up the picture. They are but theories at best, theories unhelpful except to console those who are forward to be deceived for the sake of those they love–theories often very fatal by keeping our charity in check and interfering with that restlessness of converting love in season and out of season, and that impetuous agony of prayer, upon which God may have made the salvation of our friends depend. (The Precious Blood, page 77"
You see Lionel we can offer no hope of Salvation for those outside the Catholic Church and as you say God's mercies are unknown to us and thus not known on earth and yet you come across as believing that being judged worthy of Heaven by God is in your mind a null sect of people and only reluctantly refer to it as Church teaching. On the one hand you say that these situations would not be known to us so we do not see them as visible on earth. With that I agree. But then you go on to say that all non Catholics as known or unknown to us for the last 2000 years are all in Hell. So you are playing God and that is reckless. How can you possibly say that you can predict or even fathom the mercies of God, Jesus, Blessed Mother and all the angels and saints? You and I have no idea how judgement by God works nor should we. You have no idea if conversion to Catholicism might happen after apparent earthly death. You have no idea how purgatory may be used by God to purge sin. You have no idea how the mercies of God are applied in each and every case which are each different from each other.
The person that I tell that I can not know if they go to Hell or not is also told that they are in great peril without the Catholic Church and the sacraments and that the Catholic Church is the Only true Church outside which there is no Salvation. But judgement belongs to God and not George or Lionel.
JMJ,
George Brenner
Absolutely true on this Earth, but this does not give you the right to draw the forgone conclusion that God does not extend his mercies to those unknown to us at the time of judgement for reasons known to God alone. Someone may have not been Catholic on earth but if they attain Salvation they most certainly be Catholic in Heaven.
Lionel:
Yes they can. This is a possibility but we do not know this case and can never know this person. So someone saved in this manner is irrelevant to the literal interpretation of the dogma by Fr.Leonard Feeney.
On the one hand you say that these situations would not be known to us so we do not see them as visible on earth. With that I agree.
Lionel:
They are not visible to us and so are irrelevant to the dogma on salvation.
George:
But then you go on to say that all non Catholics as known or unknown to us for the last 2000 years are all in Hell.
Lionel:
The Church says they are oriented to Hell. All of them. I have quoted you the texts.
This is the ordinary way for them unless they convert into the Church.
If among them there are some who are not in Hell this would be known only to God.However in general they are all oriented to Hell.(AG 7, Vatican Council II, Cantate Domino Council of Florence 1441 etc, John 3:5,Mark 16:16 etc).
How can you possibly say that you can predict or even fathom the mercies of God, Jesus, Blessed Mother and all the angels and saints? You and I have no idea how judgement by God works nor should we. You have no idea if conversion to Catholicism might happen after apparent earthly death. You have no idea how purgatory may be used by God to purge sin. You have no idea how the mercies of God are applied in each and every case which are each different from each other.
Lionel:
The mercy of God is available in Catholic Faith and the baptism of water and for practising Catholics in the Sacrament of Confession.
Jesus tells us that the way to Hell is wide and most people take it.He says to enter throught the narrow gate.
The narrow gate is the Catholic Church, it is Catholic faith and the baptism of water.
If there is a last minute conversion then the person can be saved and be in Heaven otherwise in general they are oriented to Hell. This is the norm chosen by God.
The person that I tell that I can not know if they go to Hell or not is also told that they are in great peril without the Catholic Church and the sacraments and that the Catholic Church is the Only true Church outside which there is no Salvation. But judgement belongs to God and not George or Lionel.
Lionel:
Yes they are in great peril because the Church inspired by the Holy Spirit says so. They are not in great peril because we humans can judge them. We cannot judge them.
The non Catholic you meet is going to Hell because the Church says so and you cannot judge if he is going to be an exception.
George.
Pending questions.
Do the community of Fr.Leonard Feeney interpret the baptism of desire as being explicit for us or implicit for us ?
Similarly do they believe that being saved in invincible ignorance followed by the baptism of water is explicit for us or implicit for us?
Do they assume that LG 16 (invincible ignorance ) is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
Pending questions:
So is Vatican Council II in perfect agreement with Tradition and the dogma on salvation when it says all need faith and baptism for salvation(AG 7) and we know there are no known exceptions mentioned in the Council ?
Is the Council in perfect agreement with Fr.Leonard Feeney on the issue of extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
This is the position of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Worcester and Manchester,USA ?
Pending question.
Do you think that the supporters of Fr.Leonard Feeney are interpreting the baptism of desire as being explicit for us or as being implicit for us ?
This is the fundamental issue.
Once this error is corrected the Council supports Fr.Leonard Feeney
Lionel said: If there is a last minute conversion then the person can be saved and be in Heaven otherwise in general they are oriented to Hell. This is the norm chosen by God and also said ...The non Catholic you meet is going to Hell because the Church says so and you cannot judge if he is going to be an exception.
These two sentences prove my point. You need to re read your own sentences and there meaning for you. I offer no one hope in any manner that they can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Where did I ever say that anyone as known on earth is in your words and exception ( poor choice of words since there are no exceptions). All I am saying is that we do not know what transpires between God and each individual at their judgement and therefore can not say that someone is actually in hell. We simply do not know. That is up to God and not you and me. How God applies his mercies to conversion to Catholicism at the time of judgement is none of our business for we trust and love God. My point remains that you do not know if all non Catholics are in hell and I pray and hope that you are not in denial of the possible mercies of God which in no way contradict the certainty of no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church.
JMJ,
George Brenner
Post a Comment