Rorate Caeili correspondents (1) cannot point out the simple facts citing Vatican Council II itself. There are comments on Rorate Caeili regarding Pope Francis’s statement "It is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church". Comments suggest that the pope's statement is contradicted by Vatican Council II with reference to ecumenism and ecclesiology (understanding of church).
1.
In comments there are quotations from the Council with reference to ecumenism and Rorate correspondents are not citing Ad Gentes 7 (2) which the Church lists under the title Outside the Church No Salvation (CCC 846).
How can you discuss ecumenism or being saved in imperfect communion with the Church(UR) without any reference to Ad Gentes 7?
2.
Then where in the Council is it said that salvation for Christian communities and churches is known in present times ? Where is it said that we personally can know any such case ?. So how can these cases be exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 unless these cases were physically visible to us on earth ?
3.
We can accept that a Christian can be saved. This is a possibility.However who can name any such person in the present times ? There may be no case in 2013. We do not know.
Here is some correspondence.
D. Harold said...
Surely, no one would seriously hold that Pope Francis thinks the ONLY one to be christian are Roman Catholics! This position would be absurd and con tray to the teachings of Vatican II.
D. Harold said...
when the Pope refers to `christian`he refers not only to Roman Catholics but to ALL those who hve been validly baptized. Valid baptism incorporates them into the church . This is the clear teaching of Vatican II. Read the Decree on Ecumenism for yourself. This would be his maning of the term `Church`!
This quote from the Decree on Ecumenism should set the correct intrepretation of Pope Francis (or as He prefers to be known, as the Bishop of Rome).
"For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church"
Paragraph 3 Decree on Ecumenism (UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO).
Rorate's correspondent Adfero responds without citing Vatican Council II.
Adfero said...
D. Harold, maybe try interpreting the Council through Francis in this one, instead of him through the Council ...
These are just words. Why doesn't Adfero quote Vatican Council II(AG). Mention Ad Gentes 7 and then show how Unitatis Redintigratio (UR) is not an exception to AG 7.
Alexander adulescens said...
"Surely, no one would seriously hold that Pope Francis thinks the ONLY one to be christian are Roman Catholics! This position would be absurd and con tray to the teachings of Vatican II."
No. It would not be absurd.
Yes. It would be contrary to the teachings of Vatican II. And yet, it would demonstrably be in agreement with every papal and conciliar document prior to Vatican II. Add to that the fathers. Add to that the Sacred Scriptures.
Yes it would be contrary to the teachings of Vatican II ?
And Rorate does not show him any text from the Council Since the Rorate correspondents also believe the same.They probably think Vatican Council II contradicts Pope Francis.
Rorate correspondents need to :
1. Cite Vatican Council II, Ad Gentes 7 which the Church lists under the title Outside the Church No Salvation (CCC 846). Then discus ecumenism or being saved in imperfect communion with the Church.
2. Mention that Vatican Council II does not state that salvation for Christian communities and churches is known in the present times in individual or personal cases . No document of Vatican Council II says that we personally know any such case or can know any such case . So ask, how can these cases be exceptions to Ad Gentes ? They would be exceptions if they were physically visible to us on earth. They would have to be known to be exceptions to AG 7.
3.We can accept that a Christian can be saved. This is a possibility.However who can name any such person in the present times ? There may be no case in 2013. We do not know.So where is the contradiction in Vatican Council II to AG 7 which says all need Catholic Faith for salvation ?
(See the video in which Michael Voris asks Fr.Jonathan Morris to name some one in the present times, whom he knows, who does not have to convert into the Catholic Church. http://youtu.be/ylVcrYlpOBc )
-Lionel Andrades
1.
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=19978542&postID=7776050478658115067&isPopup=true1.
2.
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. -Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II. (emphasis added)
There is no rational basis in Vatican Council II for the liberal interpretation of church or ecumenism
Fr.John Zuhlsdorf does not respond once again
Fr.John Zuhlsdorf does not know how to handle a comment on Lumen Gentium 15
Pope celebrates his saint's day with cardinals: 'absurd' to look for Jesus without the Church .
Is Lumen Gentium 14 and Lumen Gentium 16 really an exception to Pope Francis' statement ?
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