When Pope Francis said that it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church was he also referring to the Orthodox Christians ?
Comments on Rorate Caeili suggest that the pope's statement is contradicted by Vatican Council II with reference to ecumenism and ecclesiology (understanding of church).(1)
Also on a discussion board a priest thinks the pope is contradicted.This is not true. Here is our correspondence.
Fr.John George:
you fail to add eg blessed eucharist validly present in orthodox churches therefore christ is found beyond visible rcc[ but primordial and primary location in rcc from which all eucharists derive]
Lionel:
It is not possible for the Orthodox Christians to find Jesus outside the Catholic Church.
ii]but orthodox eucharist is united with rcc visible eucharists[as part of eucharistic multilocations in and beyond visible church
Yes. The Eucharist in the Catholic Church is also valid but if a Catholic is in schism or heresy it is a mortal sin. This is not finding Jesus or wanting to be with Him forever in eternity.
Similarly the Orthodox Christians to find Jesus must convert into the Catholic Church.
Not every one who says Lord,Lord will enter the Church but those who do the will of God.
It is the will of God that all be united in the Catholic Church(CCC 845).
Many will say I did this and that in your name, Scripture tells, and Jesus will say depart from me I do not know you.
iii][such orthodox churches are not absolutely beyond rc but conjoined[vat2]with visible rcc though not fully incorporated[catholic ecumenic hermeneusis 101]
Vatican Council II says they need Catholic Faith for salvation.(AG 7).
iv]pope rightfully assumes nuanced hermeneusis by listeners
Pope Francis mentioned the 'hierarchical Church' as was referred to by St.Ignatius of Loyola. This removes any doubt. He was speaking of the Catholic Church of which he is the head and in which the Orthodox Christians are not members.
It is not possible for the Orthodox Christians to find Jesus outside the Catholic Church.
ii]but orthodox eucharist is united with rcc visible eucharists[as part of eucharistic multilocations in and beyond visible church
Yes. The Eucharist in the Catholic Church is also valid but if a Catholic is in schism or heresy it is a mortal sin. This is not finding Jesus or wanting to be with Him forever in eternity.
Similarly the Orthodox Christians to find Jesus must convert into the Catholic Church.
Not every one who says Lord,Lord will enter the Church but those who do the will of God.
It is the will of God that all be united in the Catholic Church(CCC 845).
Many will say I did this and that in your name, Scripture tells, and Jesus will say depart from me I do not know you.
iii][such orthodox churches are not absolutely beyond rc but conjoined[vat2]with visible rcc though not fully incorporated[catholic ecumenic hermeneusis 101]
Vatican Council II says they need Catholic Faith for salvation.(AG 7).
iv]pope rightfully assumes nuanced hermeneusis by listeners
Pope Francis mentioned the 'hierarchical Church' as was referred to by St.Ignatius of Loyola. This removes any doubt. He was speaking of the Catholic Church of which he is the head and in which the Orthodox Christians are not members.
-Lionel Andrades
“It is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”-Pope Francis
Pope: Mass on Feast of St. George
2013-04-23 Vatican Radio
(Vatican Radio) “It is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”: this was Pope Francis’ message as he marked his name day, the Feast of St. George, this Tuesday celebrating Mass in the Pauline Chapel with the Cardinals present in Rome. Emer McCarthy reports:
In his homily, the Pope thanked the cardinals for coming to concelebrate with him: "Thank you - he said - because I really feel welcomed by you". Commenting on the readings of the day, the Holy Father highlighted three aspects of the Church: Its missionary activity, born of persecution; the fact that it is a Mother Church which gifts us the faith that is our identity and that you cannot find Jesus outside of the Church; the joy of belonging to the Church bringing Jesus to others. In short the joy of being an evangelizer:
Below we publish a Vatican Radio transcript and translation of the Holy Father’s Homily for Mass with the Cardinals in the Pauline Chapel.
I thank His Eminence, the Cardinal Dean, for his words: thank you very much, Your Eminence, thank you.
I also thank all of you who wanted to come today: Thank you. Because I feel welcomed by you. Thank you. I feel good with you, and I like that.
The [first] reading today makes me think that the missionary expansion of the Church began precisely at a time of persecution, and these Christians went as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, and proclaimed the Word. They had this apostolic fervor within them, and that is how the faith spread! Some, people of Cyprus and Cyrene - not these, but others who had become Christians - went to Antioch and began to speak to the Greeks too. It was a further step. And this is how the Church moved forward. Whose was this initiative to speak to the Greeks? This was not clear to anyone but the Jews. But ... it was the Holy Spirit, the One who prompted them ever forward ... But some in Jerusalem, when they heard this, became 'nervous and sent Barnabas on an "apostolic visitation": perhaps, with a little sense of humor we could say that this was the theological beginning of the Doctrine of the Faith: this apostolic visit by Barnabas. He saw, and he saw that things were going well.
And so the Church was a Mother, the Mother of more children, of many children. It became more and more of a Mother. A Mother who gives us the faith, a Mother who gives us an identity. But the Christian identity is not an identity card: Christian identity is belonging to the Church, because all of these belonged to the Church, the Mother Church. Because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The great Paul VI said: "Wanting to live with Jesus without the Church, following Jesus outside of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church is an absurd dichotomy." And the Mother Church that gives us Jesus gives us our identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging. Identity means belonging. This belonging to the Church is beautiful.
http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-mass-on-feast-of-st-george-full-text
Pope: Mass on Feast of St. George
2013-04-23 Vatican Radio
(Vatican Radio) “It is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”: this was Pope Francis’ message as he marked his name day, the Feast of St. George, this Tuesday celebrating Mass in the Pauline Chapel with the Cardinals present in Rome. Emer McCarthy reports:
In his homily, the Pope thanked the cardinals for coming to concelebrate with him: "Thank you - he said - because I really feel welcomed by you". Commenting on the readings of the day, the Holy Father highlighted three aspects of the Church: Its missionary activity, born of persecution; the fact that it is a Mother Church which gifts us the faith that is our identity and that you cannot find Jesus outside of the Church; the joy of belonging to the Church bringing Jesus to others. In short the joy of being an evangelizer:
Below we publish a Vatican Radio transcript and translation of the Holy Father’s Homily for Mass with the Cardinals in the Pauline Chapel.
I thank His Eminence, the Cardinal Dean, for his words: thank you very much, Your Eminence, thank you.
I also thank all of you who wanted to come today: Thank you. Because I feel welcomed by you. Thank you. I feel good with you, and I like that.
The [first] reading today makes me think that the missionary expansion of the Church began precisely at a time of persecution, and these Christians went as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, and proclaimed the Word. They had this apostolic fervor within them, and that is how the faith spread! Some, people of Cyprus and Cyrene - not these, but others who had become Christians - went to Antioch and began to speak to the Greeks too. It was a further step. And this is how the Church moved forward. Whose was this initiative to speak to the Greeks? This was not clear to anyone but the Jews. But ... it was the Holy Spirit, the One who prompted them ever forward ... But some in Jerusalem, when they heard this, became 'nervous and sent Barnabas on an "apostolic visitation": perhaps, with a little sense of humor we could say that this was the theological beginning of the Doctrine of the Faith: this apostolic visit by Barnabas. He saw, and he saw that things were going well.
And so the Church was a Mother, the Mother of more children, of many children. It became more and more of a Mother. A Mother who gives us the faith, a Mother who gives us an identity. But the Christian identity is not an identity card: Christian identity is belonging to the Church, because all of these belonged to the Church, the Mother Church. Because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The great Paul VI said: "Wanting to live with Jesus without the Church, following Jesus outside of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church is an absurd dichotomy." And the Mother Church that gives us Jesus gives us our identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging. Identity means belonging. This belonging to the Church is beautiful.
And the third idea comes to my mind - the first was the explosion of missionary activity; the second, the Mother Church - and the third, that when Barnabas saw that crowd - the text says: " And a large number of people was added to the Lord" - when he saw those crowds, he experienced joy. " When he arrived and saw the grace of God, he rejoiced ": his is the joy of the evangelizer. It was, as Paul VI said, "the sweet and comforting joy of evangelizing." And this joy begins with a persecution, with great sadness, and ends with joy. And so the Church goes forward, as one Saint says - I do not remember which one, here - "amid the persecutions of the world and the consolations of the Lord." And thus is the life of the Church. If we want to travel a little along the road of worldliness, negotiating with the world - as did the Maccabees, who were tempted, at that time - we will never have the consolation of the Lord. And if we seek only consolation, it will be a superficial consolation, not that of the Lord: a human consolation. The Church's journey always takes place between the Cross and the Resurrection, amid the persecutions and the consolations of the Lord. And this is the path: those who go down this road are not mistaken.
Let us think today about the missionary activity of the Church: these [people] came out of themselves to go forth. Even those who had the courage to proclaim Jesus to the Greeks, an almost scandalous thing at that time. Think of this Mother Church that grows, grows with new children to whom She gives the identity of the faith, because you cannot believe in Jesus without the Church. Jesus Himself says in the Gospel: " But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep." If we are not "sheep of Jesus," faith does not some to us. It is a rosewater faith, a faith without substance. And let us think of the consolation that Barnabas felt, which is "the sweet and comforting joy of evangelizing." And let us ask the Lord for this "parresia", this apostolic fervor that impels us to move forward, as brothers, all of us forward! Forward, bringing the name of Jesus in the bosom of Holy Mother Church, and, as St. Ignatius said, "hierarchical and Catholic." So be it.
(emphasis added)
http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-mass-on-feast-of-st-george-full-text
1
Rorate Caeili correspondents also believe that Vatican Council II contradicts Pope Francis
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