Monday, December 25, 2017

Christmas apologetics


Here is some e-mail correspondence today with an important Catholic apologist.


You are in error if by "member" you mean a visible member.
Lionel: I mean visible...., this was the de fide teaching for centuries.
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 There is a distinction between joined to the Church quoad se versus quoad nos. 

Lionel: For me probabilities are not real people. Possibilities are not real people in  2017. So when I say that it is possible that someone can be saved with the baptism of desire(BOD), I mean that with God all things are possible. It does not mean I admit that there is a known exception  to EENS.
Since we are talking about possibilties, I can say that it is possibile that there was not even one BOD case over the last 10 years.Or, there were many BOD cases all followed with the baptism of  water in the Church.
So I have made the distinction between saved as  a possibility, as a hypothetical case in the Church and being saved  defacto, in real life, at the practical and visible level.
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You have failed to make that distinction, and instead focus on what is "visible." 

Lionel: For me possibilities and hypothetical cases are not visible. This is something obvious.
Since for you every one does not have to be a visible member of the Church, then the inference is that there are exceptions.If there are exceptions then the exceptions would be visible to be exceptions.
So since you say that not every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation, I ask you where are the 'visible'exceptions.
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In so doing, you contradict yourself. You first admitted that those with BOD are joined to the Church quoad se. 

Lionel: As a possibility, in as much it could be a possibilty,I could say  there are no BOD cases over the last 100 years. 
This is something which would only be known to God.
On the other hand when I say that every one needs to be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation  it is not because I know - but because the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit teaches this.(Vatican Council II, Ad Gentes 7, Cantate Domino Council of Florence 1441, Catechism of the Catholic Church( The Necessity of Baptism) 845,846,1257 etc), Athanasius  Creed(outside the Church there is no salvation), the Nicene Creed ( I believe in one baptism-this is a reference to one known baptism in the Catholic Church, the baptism of water) etc.
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But those are invisible cases. Thus, you contradict yourself when you argue that one must be a visible member of the Church, quoad nos, to be saved.

Lionel: I do not know what is your definition of quod nos.
However if I said that as a possibility one must be a visible member of the Church it would be  meaningless.Since about anything is possible as a possibility.
If I said that de facto, practically, on earth every one needs to be a member of the Church with no known exceptions,  I am referring to the dogmatic teaching and not to usknowing any exceptions.
I assume you also believe that the baptism of desire(BOS), baptism of blood(BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I) are only hypothetical cases and not known cases in our reality. So they are not practical exceptions to the teaching on all needing to be members of the Church for salvation.
So I am affirming BOD, BOB and I.I as possibilities, only, since at the practical level we can only have them as possibilities.At the human level they can only be possibilities. While at the same time I am not rejecting the traditional interpretation of the dogma EENS, the strict interpretation, as it was known to the Jesuits in the Middle Ages.Since over the centuries possibilities were not practical exceptions to EENS.
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 If one is joined to the Church quoad se, as you yourself have admitted, he does not have to be visible member to be saved. 

Lionel. Yes, it cannot be a visible member. It is merely a thought.Speculation. A hope.
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And this invisible case is not an exception to EENS because he is saved in the Church, quoad se.
Lionel: Yes he is saved in the Church 'only in our mind', as we choose to accept it mentally.He could be saved as part of 'our faith'.
So LG 16,LG 8, UR 3,GS 22 etc are all possibilities only for me when I read Vatican Council II.
This is not how most people read the Council.
Similarly BOD, BOB and I.I in the Catechism of Pope Pius X, Mystici Corporis or the Catechism of Trent will only be invisible and hypothetical for me. This is not how the traditionalists and liberals look at it. For me they do not contradict Feeneyite EENS.-Lionel Andrades