Friday, July 28, 2017

We can have a unified interpretation of Vatican Council II when the baptism of desire error is corrected by the SSPX


We can have a unified interpretation of Vatican Council II when the baptism of desire error is corrected by the SSPX



JULY 28, 2017


We can have a unified interpretation of Vatican Council II when the baptism of desire error is corrected by the SSPX
Comment

Truth does not contradict itself. If BOD was a contradiction of EENS than either one of them has to be false. But why has the Church not condemned this teaching but rather has confirmed and defended it?

Lionel:

The baptism of desire (BOD) is invisible and implicit.It is not a contradiction of EENS. But the SSPX and you have made a mistake. So have the liberal theologians and Cardinal Ratzinger. They can correct this mistake. I write all this not for the sake of criticizing but so that the correction will made Then we can have a unified and irrational interpretation of VC 2.
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BOP and BOD are not De Fidei but Sententia fidei proxima which means that these teachings are generally accepted as divine revelation but not defined as such by the Magisterium.
Lionel:
Why are you mentioning this to me I am not rejecting them. Secondly why are you mentioning them with reference to EENS you say that they are invisible and so are not exceptions to EENS.
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Of course it has an connection to EENS. Even in the paragraph where Ott is writing about EENS he mentions BOD and the teachings of the Church Fathers.
Lionel:
For me BOD has no connection with EENS. This was the mistake in the Baltmore Catechism when they considered the case of the catechuman as being a baptism like the baptism of water and placed it in the baptism of water section of the Catechism. We cannot give any one the baptism of desire as we can the baptism of water. We can repeat the baptism of water but can do so with the baptism of desire. We know who has been given the baptism of water but only God knows who has the baptism of desire. It was also wrong for Vatican Council II to mention BOD, BOB and I.I. The long campaign of the Masons and others was successful. They got rid of the dogma EENS with this ruse.
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Of course objectively speaking someone can be saved through BOP or BOD or II.
Yes for God. Objectively we cannot know of any such case, for example in 2017.

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When we talk about a case of someone being saved in 2017 then we are talking about a person therefore its subjective.
Yes. So we agree that BOD etc cannot be objective exceptions to the dogma EENS.
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A dogma is a truth fixed by God. It can not be contradicted. Under no circumstances.
Agreed. BOD etc cannot contradict it ever.
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If God saves someone through an extraordinary grace like for example BOD, than he does not contradict a Dogma. God being almighty is not an absurdity and wether we know of it or not does not matter at all.
No he does not contradict the dogma EENS for us human beings. Since BOD etc would be a zero case in our reality.Even if someone was saved with BOD it would not be known to us.
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What Pius XII. or the Saints or the Councils are saying is that there is a possibility of someone being saved through BOD without having received the sacramental baptism.
O.K but this has no connection to EENS, it is not an exception to EENS.
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The dogma is not a contradiction of God. However visible for us BOD would be a contradiction of the dogma.
If there was a BOD case it would be followed by the baptism of water since in Heaven there are only Catholics.So it is not really an issue for us when we discuss EENS.However it has been made an issue.
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"In the case of BOD it depends upon us." This is irrational. As if something being visible or known to us is changing reality.
This is the reality -that we cannot physically see BOD cases.While the New Theology suggests we can.
Since BOD, BOB and I.I are always invisible to us and we cannot know of any particular case saved as such, we can only refer to a possibility, a theoretical case. We can speculate.
But the reality is that we do not known of a particular case. We do not know the name and surname of any one saved as such.So we can only refer to a possibility.

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Who cares if we know of such a particular case? It is has nothing to do wether the teachings of BOD, BOB or II are true.
It is important since it makes the present teachings on BOD etc by the SSPX and Fr. Hesse as being false. It means the magisterium has made a mistake and the traditionalists did not know about it.

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Either someone gets saved by BOD or not. Wether he is invisible, visible, blue, green, red, brown does not matter at all.
But where is the some one who gets saved with BOD etc.May be there was no case over the last century. How would we know?
The dogma is the teaching of the Holy Spirit . It is de fide.It is an infallible teaching.BOD has not been defined by the Church.

-Lionel Andrades

We can have a unified interpretation of Vatican Council II when the baptism of desire - error is corrected by the SSPX

Truth does not contradict itself. If BOD was a contradiction of EENS than either one of them has to be false. But why has the Church not condemned this teaching but rather has confirmed and defended it? 
The baptism of desire (BOD) is  invisible and implicit.It is not a contradiction of EENS. But the SSPX and you have made a mistake. So have the liberal theologians and Cardinal Ratzinger. They can correct this mistake. I write all this not for the sake of criticizing but so that the correction will made Then we can have a unified and irrational interpretation of VC 2.
BOP and BOD are not De Fidei but Sententia fidei proxima which means that these teachings are generally accepted as divine revelation but not defined as such by the Magisterium. 
Why are you mentioning this to me I am not rejecting them. Secondly why are you mentioning them with reference to EENS you say that they are invisible and so are not exceptions to EENS.
Of course it has an connection to EENS. Even in the paragraph where Ott is writing about EENS he mentions BOD and the teachings of the Church Fathers.
For me BOD has no connection with EENS. This was the mistake in the Baltmore Catechism when they considered the case of the catechuman as being a baptism like the baptism of water and placed it in the baptism of water section of the Catechism. We cannot give any one the baptism of desire as we can the baptism of water. We can repeat the baptism of water but can do so with the baptism of desire. We know who has been given the baptism of water but only God knows who has the baptism of desire. It was also wrong for Vatican Council II to mention BOD, BOB and I.I. The long campaign of the Masons and others was successful. They got rid of the dogma EENS with this ruse.
Of course objectively speaking someone can be saved through BOP or BOD or II.
 Yes for God. Objectively we cannot know of any such case, for example in 2017.
When we talk about a case of someone being saved in 2017 then we are talking about a person therefore its subjective. 
Yes. So we agree that BOD etc cannot be objective exceptions to the dogma EENS.
A dogma is a truth fixed by God. It can not be contradicted. Under no circumstances.
Agreed. BOD etc cannot contradict it ever.
If God saves someone trough an extraordinary grace like for example BOD, than he does not contradict a Dogma. God being almighty is not an absurdity and wether we know of it or not does not matter at all.
No he does not contradict the dogma EENS for us human beings. Since BOD etc would be a zero case in our reality.Even if someone was saved with BOD it would not be known to us.
What Pius XII. or the Saints or the Councils are saying is that there is a possibility of someone being saved through BOD without having received the sacramental baptism. 
O.K but this has no connection to EENS, it is not an exception to EENS.
The dogma is not a contradiction of God. However visible for us BOD would be a contradiction of the dogma.
If there was a BOD case it would be followed by the baptism of water since in Heaven there are only Catholics.So it is not really an issue for us when we discuss EENS.However it has been made an issue.
"In the case of BOD it depends upon us." This is irrational. As if something being visible or known to us is changing reality. 
This is the reality -that we cannot physically see BOD cases.While the New Theology suggests we can.
Since BOD, BOB and I.I are always invisible to us and we cannot know of any particular case saved as such, we can only refer to a possibility, a theoretical case. We can speculate.
But the reality is that we do not known of a particular case. We do not know the name and surname of any one saved as such.So we can only refer to a possibility.
 Who cares if we know of such a particular case? It is has nothing to do wether the teachings of BOD, BOB or II are true.
It is important since it makes the present teachings on BOD etc by the SSPX and Fr. Hesse as being false. It means the magisterium has made a mistake and the traditionalists did not know about it.
Either someone gets saved by BOD or not. Wether he is invisible, visible, blue, green, red, brown does not matter at all.
But where is the some one who gets saved with BOD etc.May be there was no case over the last century. How would we know?
The dogma is the teaching of the Holy Spirit . It is de fide.It is an infallible teaching.BOD has not been defined by the Church.-Lionel Andrades

Atheistic Abortionist in the Church - Catholic Pro-lifers thrown out


Atheistic Abortionist in the Church - Catholic Pro-lifers thrown out

On July 26 the infamous Italian abortionist Emma Bonino, 69, spoke in the parish-church of San Defendente, Ronco di Cassato, Italy, in order to promote a pro-immigration campaign.

For decades Bonino has been a diabolical presence in Italian politics. As an abortionist she murdered more than 10'000 children, her own included. She led the campaign that succeeded in introducing abortion in Italy in 1978. Now Bonino promotes stealing the young population from poor countries in order to fill the population gap in Italy.

The pro-life organisation “Ora et labora in difesa della vita” organised prayer rallies against Bonino in front of the bishop’s house and in front of the parish church.

Quoting Pope Francis, the parish-priest, Father Mario Marchiori, replied that his church was a "place of welcome". He was proven wrong. Antonio Carrabino reports on Twitter that during the event Catholics tried to address abortion and demographic decline but were shouted at by the others, “shame, shame”.

Deacon Nick Donnelly learned that Father Marchiori even called the police in order to remove the Catholics from the church.

Picture: Emma Bonino / Rita Bernardini, 20 settembre 2007 © Blackcat, it.wiki CC BY-SA#newsQznayrfqsq
https://gloria.tv/article/n8uXPFjL7fKg4pmL2nHuPrBUq

After the 1949 Letter, all of us have to make the theoretical-practical distinction since the error has spread like the Arian heresy of the past





There are three Baptisms. Baptism of Water, Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.

Of course I don´t make the theoretical-practical distinction just like the Council of Trent does not make this distinction or Saint Thomas Aquinas or Saint Pius X. don´t make these distinctions.

They did not confuse this issue.So it was not necessary for them to make the distinction.However after the 1949 Letter, all of us have to make the theoretical-practical distinction since the error has spread like the Arian heresy of the past once did.
Image result for Photos of  Arian heresy today




"Do you know someone who is a member of the Soul of the Church and who will be saved outside the Church or who has been saved as such?" Do you understand that these things are hidden to us? You can not look at someones Soul to know wether it is in a state of grace or not.

"Do you know someone who is a member of the Soul of the Church and who will be saved outside the Church or who has been saved as such?" Do you understand that these things are hidden to us? You can not look at someones Soul to know wether it is in a state of grace or not. Agreed.So why did you mention it with reference to EENS ? You know that BOD etc are not visible for us and it would only be known to God.Why are you still trying to defend the Letter?

For Fr.Hesse and Cardinal Ratzinger invisible cases of being saved in invincible ignorance are known. They exclude the baptism of water.This is an exceptional means of salvation. This is also the theology of Fr. Jean Marie Gleize of the SSPX. From here the trouble starts. Fr.Hesse says all Jews need to convert into the Church and then says there are exceptions(BOD etc). He then interprets LG 16 etc like he interprets BOD etc. So LG 16 becomes a visible rupture with Tradition and then he runs down the Council. If his premise was different his conclusion would be different.-Lionel Andrades

JULY 28, 2017

So objectively there were no exceptions to Feeneyite EENS and the so Letter of the Holy Office was a classic 'oops'

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/07/so-objectively-there-were-no-exceptions.html

JULY 28, 2017

If LG 16 refers to a hypothetical case it is not a rupture with EENS and so supports the old ecclesiology of the Church

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/07/if-lg-16-refers-to-hypothetical-case-it.html

JULY 28, 2017

You accept the Letter of the Holy Office.So this is your inference.It's nuts I agree

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2017/07/you-accept-letter-of-holy-officeso-this.html






You accept the Letter of the Holy Office.So this is your inference.It's nuts I agree.

Image result for Photos your nuts

Well if you really believe that the baptism of desire(BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and invincible ignorance( I.I) is an exception of EENS if these cases are visible to us than this notion is completely nuts. Everybody on this forum should see this. 
You accept the Letter of the Holy Office.So this is your inference.It's nuts I agree.
-Lionel Andrades



If LG 16 refers to a hypothetical case it is not a rupture with EENS and so supports the old ecclesiology of the Church

Are you joking? Lets assume LG 16 is not heretical against EENS. Then it is still a rupture of the Dogma of the Incarnation and the Dogma of the Holy Trinity. Do you understand?
yesterday
If LG 16 is not a rupture with EENS , if it refers to a hypothetical case, then it supports the old ecclesiology. If it is not a rupture with the old ecclesiology then how can it be a rupture with the dogma of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity ?
-Lionel Andrades

So objectively there were no exceptions to Feeneyite EENS and the so Letter of the Holy Office was a classic 'oops'.

A real distinction that has to be made is "objective" and "subjective" which comes from aristotelian-thomistic philosphy. Objectively there is no salvation outside the Church but subjectively God can save someone outside the Church through an extraordinary grace. If you don´t know the difference between "objective" (referring to the thing) and "subjective" (referring to the person) you can´t make theology.
1 hour ago
Great! Now we are making progress.
5 minutes ago
So objectively every one needs to enter the Church for salvation.Subjectively we do not and cannot know of any exception in 2017
4 minutes ago
Subjectively we cannot see or know of any BOD, BOB or I.I case saved. Objectively there are no BOD, BOB or I.I cases.
3 minutes ago
So objectively there were no exceptions to Feeneyite EENS and the so Letter of the Holy Office was a classic 'oops'.
-Lionel Andrades

PROFEZIE DI NOSTRA SIGNORA DI ANGUERA, REGINA DELLA PACE PER ROMA, LA "CITTA' DEI SETTE COLLI"

 PROFEZIE DI NOSTRA SIGNORA DI ANGUERA, REGINA DELLA PACE PER ROMA, LA "CITTA' DEI SETTE COLLI" .
https://gloria.tv/#3~language%3DLWuifGHdzSMu3RbWvem4B68Dj
09:41
09:41

PROFEZIE DI NOSTRA SIGNORA DI ANGUERA, REGINA DELLA PACE PER ROMA, LA "CITTA' DEI SETTE COLLI" .

4.504 – Messaggio di Nostra Signora Regina della Pace, trasmesso il 25/07/2017 Cari figli, camminate per un futuro doloroso. La fede sarà presente in pochi cuori e il pantano delle false dottrine contaminerà molti dei Miei poveri figli. La città dei sette colli griderà aiuto. Nel Palazzo cercheranno il Tesoro, ma non lo troveranno. Io sono la vostra Madre Addolorata e soffro per quello che vi attende. Pregate molto davanti alla croce. Cercate forze nelle Parole del Mio Gesù e nell’Eucaristia. Allontanatevi da tutto il male e vivete rivolti al Signore. Avanti nella verità. Questo è il messaggio che oggi vi trasmetto nel nome della Santissima Trinità. Grazie per avermi permesso di riunirvi qui ancora una volta. Vi benedico nel nome del Padre, del Figlio e dello Spirito Santo. Amen. Rimanete nella pace.

www.madonnadianguera.it/…/%e2%80%8b4-504-…