Lionel
You insult my intelligence. The Roman Catholic Church makes the Word of God of no effect through their tradition. You see the faithful whore daughter of Babylon, the Roman Catholic Church’s desire to be all things to all people has an ever widening gate that leads to destruction
You insult my intelligence. The Roman Catholic Church makes the Word of God of no effect through their tradition. You see the faithful whore daughter of Babylon, the Roman Catholic Church’s desire to be all things to all people has an ever widening gate that leads to destruction
Lionel: The Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus. It is the only Church Jesus founded and outside of this Church there is no salvation.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church(1257,846,845), Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441) are in harmony with John 3:5( the necessity of the baptism of water) and Mark 16:16( those who do not believe in Jesus in the Catholic Church and accept him as their Saviour and follow the faith and moral teachings of the Church will be condemned).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Vatican Council II, the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation and other magisterial teachings can be interpreted with the theology of Feeneyism or Cushingism.
Cushingism is based upon the irrational philosophy of invisible people being visiblle, invisible cases of the baptism of desire without the baptism of water are alleged to be visible exceptions in the present times to Jesus' teaching in John 3:5 and Mark 16:16.So there would be a rupture with Scripture, Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church of the past.
The following passages from the Catechism can be interpreted with the false premise of Cushingism or without it ( Feeneyism). The conclusion would be different.
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CCC 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
Lionel: For me a Feeneyitie this is a reference to an invisible case in 2017. So it is not an exception to the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation as it was understood in the 16th century.So there is no contradiction here with 'the strict interpretation ' of the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church for those who are members.
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CCC 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament
Lionel: Once again this is a hypothetical case and so it is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was interpreted by Fr. Leonard Feeney. The Church in 1949 made a factual mistake in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Richard Cushing.So the centuries old interpretation of the dogma, which says all need to be members of the Church, is not contradicted by CCC 1259.
For you it would be a contradiction so you have mentioned it.You are looking at this text as a Cushingite.
For you it would be a contradiction so you have mentioned it.You are looking at this text as a Cushingite.
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CCC 1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Lionel: Once again we have a reference to imaginary, theoretical cases. They cannot be defacto, concrete exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, in 2017. Cardinal Ratzinger was a Cushingite. So he included this hypothetical case here. He accepted the error in the reasoning used in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
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http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm …..Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”- Moral Theology Book 6. This doctrine has been taught by doctors of the Church throughout her history from the earliest days down to recent times: “the Doctrine that Baptism of Water may be replaced by the Baptism of desire or by Baptism of Blood is not, as is some times supposed, a recent development of doctrine, it is taught for instance by St. Gregory Nazianzen in a sermon preached in 381…
Lionel: Yes we can accept the baptism of desire since it is a hypothetical case and dogmatically it would be followed by the baptism of water.Since it is a hypothetical case, with or without the baptism of water, it is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
So you can go ahead and believe in the baptism of desire as long as you do not posit it as an exception to 'the rigorist interpretation' of outside the church there is no salvation.Since if you do, you would infer that people in Heaven are visible on earth or that you can judge that someone on earth this year will go to Heaven even though he is not a Catholic .Both positions are irrational and non traditional.
The liberal theologians in Boston and Baltimore made this mistake. So they would interpret the reference to invincible ignorance in the Catechism of Pope Pius X as being a visible and personally known person saved outside the Church,when really it is a hypothetical case. This was their irrational Cushingite perception.
Similarly they would re-interpret St. Thomas Aquinas' man in the forest in ignorance to whom God sends a preacher , as a known case and so it is posited wrongly as an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was interpreted over the centuries.Likewise we know the case of the catechumen who desired the baptism of water but died before he received it, is a hypothetical case.If there was such a person he would only be known to God. So it is not relevant to the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. It was made relevant by the liberal theologians, including Rahner and Ratzinger, by assuming invisible people were visible in the present times, and they were saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
The liberal theologians in Boston and Baltimore made this mistake. So they would interpret the reference to invincible ignorance in the Catechism of Pope Pius X as being a visible and personally known person saved outside the Church,when really it is a hypothetical case. This was their irrational Cushingite perception.
Similarly they would re-interpret St. Thomas Aquinas' man in the forest in ignorance to whom God sends a preacher , as a known case and so it is posited wrongly as an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was interpreted over the centuries.Likewise we know the case of the catechumen who desired the baptism of water but died before he received it, is a hypothetical case.If there was such a person he would only be known to God. So it is not relevant to the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. It was made relevant by the liberal theologians, including Rahner and Ratzinger, by assuming invisible people were visible in the present times, and they were saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
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And what is the doctrine concerning Muslims? and any other pagans for that matter?
Lionel: They are all oriented to Hell ( Vatican Council II, Ad Gentes 7, Lumen Gentium 14), Catechism of the Catholic Church 846, 1257 etc,Dominus Iesus 20, Redemptoris Missio 55, Cantate Domino Council of Florence 1441 etc).There are no practical exceptions in 2017 and there are none mentioned in Vatican Council II or the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
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CCC #841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
Lionel: Yes, Jesus died for all. He died also for Muslims.He loves them. Muslims need to respond to Jesus' Supreme Sacrifice and accept Him as their Saviour. They need to be baptised with water in the Catholic Church and follow the faith and moral teachings of the Catholic Church for salvation.They must accept Him not only as an important prophet but the Son of God, the unique Saviour of the world, they must ask Him for his help, they need to pray and trust in Him and follow the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church.He died for them so they would not go to Hell.Heaven is also their inheritance won through the Sacrifice of Jesus.
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CCC #842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .
Lionel: Salvation is open to all however to receive this salvation all need to accept Jesus in the Catholic Church( Dominus Iesus), the Church is the only Ark of Noah that saves in the Flood, God the Father wants all people to be united in the Catholic Church(CCC 845).
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CCC #843 “The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as ‘a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.’
Lionel:The good things in other religions ( and sometimes even the bad things) can lead a non Catholic to the fullness of truth which is there only in the Catholic Church outside of which there is no salvation.-Lionel Andrades
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/04/florida-catholic-diocese-of-orlando-reprimands-school-teacher-for-quoting-saint-on-islam
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