Tuesday, November 8, 2016

Allora, dove è la teologia che dice il contrario?

Così abbiamo il Concilio Vaticano II (Unitatis Redintigratio) dicendo tutti luterani e altre comunità cristiane che hanno bisogno di entrare nella Chiesa come membri per la salvezza.
Abbiamo il dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Cantate Domino, Concilio di Firenze 1441) dicendo la stessa cosa. Si dice 'eretici e scismatici' sono sulla strada per il 'fuoco dell'inferno'.
Abbiamo la Fraternità San Pio X / Fraternità Sacerdotale San Pio X, Albano, Italia dire la stessa cosa.
Abbiamo Giuseppe Fallaci e me dicendo la stessa.
Ut Unum Sint di Papa Giovanni Paolo II dice la stessa cosa.Deve essere un ecumenismo di ritorno.
Allora, dove è la teologia che dice al contrario?
Documenti del Magistero (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus , il Concilio Vaticano II, ecc) affermano un ecumenismo di ritorno.Sostenere il vecchio ecclesiologia.


So we have Vatican Council II ( Unitatis Redintigratio) saying all Lutherans and other Christian communities needing to enter the Church as members for salvation.
We have the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441) saying the same thing. It says heretics and schismatics are on the way to 'the fires of Hell'.
We have the SSPX/ Fraternità Sacerdotale San Pio X saying the same thing.
We have Giuseppe Fallaci and myself saying the same.
Ut Unum SInt of Pope John Paul II says the same.There has to be an ecumenism of return.
So where is the theology which says otherwise?
Magisterial documents (EENS, Vatican Council II etc) affirm an ecumenism of return.They support the old ecclesiology.

-Lionel Andrades
https://gloria.tv/video/TgMWXDcPRjbf3qxAcuNXEuEK8


Today the magisterium wants the SSPX to affirm Vatican Council II with hypothetical cases being objective in the present times and they are not doing so.Neither would I.

As far as Feeney goes, you're not actually defending his ideas on extra ecclesiam nulla salus, are you?
Lionel:
Fr.Leonard Feeney was affirming extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) like the 16th centuries missionaries. He was saying the same thing as the three Church Councils which defined the dogma. He was saying the same thing as the popes and saints who affirmed EENS without known-to-us baptism of desire etc.

__________________________

 As you know, he was condemned by the Holy Office in 1949 and finally excommunicated by Pope Pius XII in 1953 for persisting in his errors of private interpretation of Catholic dogma surrounding the Sacrament of Baptism and the salvation of souls.
Lionel:
Yes he was saying that there is no known case of the baptism of desire etc. He was saying that there are no exceptions outside the Church while the Jesuits, the Rector of Boston College and the Archbishop of Boston was saying there are.
Since then the magisterium has also been saying there are known exceptions to the dogma EENS.
THIS IS THE NEW THEOLOGY.
So where are the exceptions to EENS in 2016? I cannot meet anyone saved outside the Church? I cannot see any person in Heaven or earth saved without the baptism of water? So how could the traditional theology be flawed, if there are no objective exceptions? How could the magisterium and the Archbishop in 1949 assume imaginary cases were exeptions to traditional EENS ? This was irrational. It was also heretical.
______________________________

 Joseph Fenton, among others, wrote papers demolishing Feeney's position and clearly stating why it is wrong.
Lionel:
Joseph Fenton like the good apologist John Hardon accepted the error of the magisterium in 1949.
It is with this irratiional reasoning that Vatican Council II is being interpreted as a break with Tradition. If we avoid this reasoning, then the text of Vatican Council II says something else. It is traditional.
________________________________

 Feeney was pertinaciously disobedient to the Magisterium of the Church, something that is today just commonplace among the modernists in power.
Lionel:
Yes. The magisterium wanted him to say that he could see baptism of desire cases in Boston and he was saying he would not say so.
Today the magisterium wants the SSPX to affirm Vatican Council II with hypothetical cases being objective in the present times and they are not doing so.Neither would I.
-Lionel Andrades

Once we avoid the new theology, with the irrational premise then the conclusion is traditional. We have the old ecclesiology and upon it we base the teaching on religious liberty, ecumenism and inter-religious dialogue.

Comments from The Remnant Newspaper
Vatican II is full of ambiguities and error. The Catholic Church "subsists in" the Body of Christ, one of many churches which are members of the Body of Christ? Heresy I say.
Lionel:
Lumen Gentium 8 refers to a hypothetical case.If there are other churches which are part of the Catholic Church and whose members are saved we would not know about it. So LG 8 does not contradict the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
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 What about religious liberty and the liberty of conscience? Which in essence is no different than the Protestant's belief in liberty to choose, to which Tertullian says a Christian has no such liberty.
Lionel:
The text does not deny the traditional teaching on religious liberty.Secondly, once you affirm the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma EENS you can base the teaching on religious liberty upon it.
This is how it was done over the centuries. It was known  that every one with no exception needs to enter the Catholic Church and be a member for salvation.So it was important that all political legislation be directed towards this common good. Every one needed to be a Catholic since according to Catholic theology there was no salvation outside the Church.
Once we avoid the new theology, with the irrational premise then the conclusion is traditional. We have the old ecclesiology and upon it we base the teaching on religious liberty, ecumenism and inter-religious dialogue.
Hindus,Buddhists, Sikhs and Others would  need to all enter the Church .This would be the Catholic ethos as a priority but not obligatory and forced upon them.They would still have the freedom to choose as it was during the times of the Papal States. However in a papal state the political system would recognise that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Vatican Council II refers to a state with a secular constitution.-Lionel Andrades
 

Once you have identified the new theology and avoided it,it is possible to view Vatican Council II in the light of Tradition. We would be back to the old ecclesiology at any Mass.

Comments from the Remnant Nespaper
I agree with you on the fact that Vatican II introduced a new theology
Lionel:
But what was that new theology? Could you be specific.
For me this is an the centre of the issue.
_____________________________

 but I don't agree that you can view either the Novus Ordo or Vatican II in the light of tradition.
Lionel:
Once you have identified the new theology and avoided it,it is possible to view Vatican Council II in the light of Tradition. We would be back to the old ecclesiology at any Mass.
_____________________________

That is exactly the problem. When they are viewed in the light of tradition, both introduce ideas that are not Catholic and as a whole are extremely troubling for a Catholic. Collegiality was part of the Magisterium? Religious liberty? A new definition of ecumenism? Have you read about the posturing and maneuvers during the Council? How do theologians who were previously censured and forbidden from teaching end up as experts on the Council?
Lionel.
I agree with you. All this possible because of the irrational premise and conclusion of the new theology.
-Lionel Andrades
 

When St. Teresa saw a demon attack priest during Mass

Demons According to St. Teresa and St. John of the Cross
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8280

http://www.spiritdaily.com/

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus: Milano 12 novembre 2016

Radio Spada

 

extra-ecclesiam-nulla-salus

Nota di Radio Spada: come di consueto e per tempo segnaliamo a tutti gli eventuali interessati questo annuale convegno di studi con informazioni che raccogliamo in rete.

Il XV Convegno di studi Albertariani
Milano il 12 novembre 2016 alle ore 15
presso Andreola Central Hotel, in via D. Scarlatti 24
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
L’appartenenza alla Chiesa come necessità di salvezza.
Relatore : don Francesco Ricossa
*Primo Intervento: Io sono la vite voi i tralci (Giov 15, 5). Chi sono le membra della Chiesa? Il dogma cattolico dell’appartenenza alla Chiesa nell’enciclica Mystici corporis di Pio XII.
*Secondo Intervento: Dopo il concilio Vaticano II: contraddizione del dogma nell’ecumenismo modernista da Paolo VI a Bergoglio

Come arrivare:
• In treno: Per chi arriva alla Stazione Centrale uscire dal porticato a sinistra. All’esterno introdursi nella strada di fronte che è via Scarlatti. Dopo appena 200 metri al numero 24 di questa si trova l’Andreola Central Hotel.
• Metrò: MM 2 (verde) MM 3 (gialla): Centrale •Tram: 1, 5, •Bus: 60 • Filobus: 90, 91, 92

Per informazioni:

Centro Studi Davide Albertario c/o Via della Torre 38, 20127 Milano
Tel. 0161.839.335 – Fax 0161.839.334 – email: info@davidealbertario.it