Tuesday, July 12, 2016

Michael Voris' videos on exclusive salvation in the Church are contradictory

Image result for Photo Michael Voris


On the Vortex, Do Non-Catholics go to Hell? ( April 24, 2016) Michael Voris says all salvation comes through the Catholic Church and outside of the Church there is no salvation. Here he repeats the new theology which accomodates being saved with the baptism of desire etc which it is supposed is explicit and personally known. So in this way it becomes relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Image result for Photo Dr.Robert Fastiggi
Michael does not affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, since for him there are exceptions like the baptism of desire etc. This would also be the understanding of Dr.Robert Fastiggi,professor of theology at the Sacred Heart Seminary,Detroit.The faculty there affirm the new theology which contradicts the Principle of Non Contradiction.The violation of the Principle of Non Contradiction arises when an irrational premise is used. The premise assumes hypothetical cases are personally visible in the present times.In other words cases of the baptism of desire, with or without the baptism of water, are visible to the naked eye on the streets of Detroit. This makes it relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
The dogma says every one needs to enter the Church for salvation and Michael Voris says the issue is not “card-carrying" or being " on the parish rolls” for salvation. .Like the Sacred Heart Seminary faculty in Detroit, he will  not say that defacto all need to be card carrying members of the Church for salvation in 2016. All need to have their names on the parish rolls, for salvation.Instead he assumes hypothetical cases are exceptions to all needing to be defacto 'card carrying members 'of the Church.
He says on the video:-
Now true, God’s grace is not bound by the sacraments. He can certainly operate outside of them.
Yes hypothetically but hypothetical cases cannot in 2016 be relevant to the dogma EENS.Since they are defacto invisible.It is the new theology which assumes that hypothetical cases are objective in the present times.
Michael says:
 He did in such manifest cases as the conversion of St. Paul, for example. Saul received a singular grace of conversion. And while that grace was not mediated through a formal sacrament, it nevertheless did come through the Church—as all graces do. It was after all the Church that was praying non-stop for relief from the murderous Saul.  In answer to the prayer of the Church about Saul, God sent them Paul.
Yes and St. Paul's conversion case cannot be an objective exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in 2016. For there to be an exception there must be a person who is saved without the Sacraments, in the present times. Some one from the past cannot be an exception this year. St.Emerentiana or St. Victor if they died and were saved without the baptism of water in the past, cannot be an exception to all needing to formally enter the Church, in 2016.
Michael says:
The example case is always brought up: Does the “good” Protestant husband and father go to Hell because he wasn’t Catholic?
Yes according to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Even the good Catholic husband and father who dies with one un-Confessed mortal sin will go to Hell.
The Protestant is living with mortal sins of faith and morals.
Now, we can never know with any certitude, of course, the disposition of any particular soul; that is completely in the realm of Our Lord as Judge. But in the hypothetical discussions people engage in, we can ask these questions. We speak in hypotheticals because principles of understanding fall from them. 
Hypothetically we know that non Catholics in general are on the way to Hell since this is the dogmatic teaching.Also Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) says all need faith and baptism for salvation.
And the singular principle that falls from all of this is: It is much more difficult to be saved if you are not a Catholic with access to the sacraments to restore you to and keep you in a state of grace. Faithful sacrament-frequenting Catholics are much more likely to be saved than anyone else because such a man is much more likely to die in a state of grace—which is necessary to be saved.
In principle all non- Catholics are on the way to Hell without faith and baptism . The Native Americans were oriented to Hell before the missionaries arrived there.It is only with the new theology, with the exceptions-premise, it is possible to say that they were not all on the way to Hell, since there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.
I agree with Michael Voris when he says here :
This is the whole point of evangelizing: to help people understand the perilous risk to which they are exposing their souls if they do not become Catholic and faithfully receive the sacraments given to us by Our Lord Himself for our salvation.
He understands that it is necessary for every one to be a card carrying member of the Church even though he contradicts himself when he supports the new theology.
With the new theology he is saying that there is salvation outside the Church and so theologically he contradicts what he has said on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church on the Vortex Being Saved ( July 11, 2016).2
 


It is also with an irrational premise, that Michael Voris  interprets Vatican Council II as a break with the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation. This is also the approach of Dr. Robert Fastiggi and the faculty at the Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit.
The Sacred Heart Seminary would contradict the Vortex Being Saved.For them   hypothetical cases,  like the baptism of desire and blood and being saved in  invincible, all without the baptism of water,are exceptions to what Michael Voris has said on the excellent video Being Saved.
If there are objections to this video from theologians, the CMTV staff simply have to make it clear that they accept being saved with the baptism of desire and blood and with invincible ignorance.
 For them 1) these are hypothetical cases known only to God.So they cannot be defacto exceptions to the dogma EENS and the message on Being Saved. This is common sense.
2) Dogmatically the baptism of desire etc would be followed with the baptism of water.This will happen in a way known only to God. So all who are in Heaven, as the video says, are Catholics.
-Lionel Andrades

1.
http://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/do-non-catholics-go-to-hell
2.
http://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vortex-on-being-saved

Joseph Shaw, John Lament and Thomas Pink teach the new theology which violates the Principle of Non Contradiction.They remain politically correct with the bishops to keep their mandatum to teach theology

Image result for photos of safe

Catholic academics and pastors appeal to the College of Cardinals over Amoris laetitia

The 1983 Code of Canon Law states that “According to the knowledge, competence, and expertise which they possess, they [the Christian faithful] have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful” (CIC, can. 212 §3).
http://www.lmschairman.org/2016/07/catholic-academics-and-pastors-appeal.html#more
Joseph Shaw, John Lament and Thomas Pink teach the new theology which violates the Principle of Non Contradiction, remain politically correct with the bishops to keep their mandatum to teach theology.

John Lamont, Thomas Pink, Joseph Shaw remain politically correct and keep their mandatum to teach theology http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/04/john-lamont-thomas-pink-joseph-shaw.html

May 31, 2014

Joseph Shaw, Gavin D'Costa obedient to Cardinal Vince Nicols are misleading lay Catholics  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/05/joseph-shaw-gavin-dcosta-obedient-to.html

May 29, 2014

Cardinal Nicols and FIUV are telling a falsehood. Why do rank and file Catholics have to accept it? http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/05/cardinal-nicols-and-fiuv-are-telling.html


The Latin Mass Society is part of the Establishment which does not affirm traditional doctrine,ecclesiology and interprets Vatican Council II with an irrationality which is politically correct http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/09/the-latin-mass-society-is-part-of.html


JULY 10, 2015
Pope Francis permits the Traditional Latin Mass only with the new ecclesiology and compromise : Joseph Shaw looks the other way http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/pope-francis-permits-traditional-latin.html


For Burke and Shaw subjective cases are objective, this is the norm.So they interpret Vatican Council II as a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/04/for-burke-and-shaw-subjective-cases-are.html

May 13, 2014

Orthodox Catholics have no comments on the University of Bristol video

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/05/orthodox-catholics-have-no-comments-on.html#links
May 24, 2014 
Traditionalists do not want to affirm extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Another wasted conference in England today  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/05/traditionalists-do-not-want-to-affirm.html#links

Joseph Shaw is not going to tell Muslims at Oxford that the Chuch says all need to formally enter the Church to avoid Hell. Neither is Gavin D'Costa going to say this in Bristol
Joseph Shaw would not say that all need to formally enter the Church for salvation in Britain. This would be the old ecclesiology.Instead he would say that there are exceptions. This is the new ecclesiology  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/04/joseph-shaw-would-not-say-that-all-need.html
Ecclesiology is not changed with I.I and BOD.It never was.Vatican Council II was always orthodox on salvation.The ecclesiology was exclusivist
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/04/ecclesiology-is-not-changed-with-ii-and.html

No text in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore or the Council of Trent says there are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
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Exclusivist ecclesiology?
The new theology is based on being able to see the dead. Remove the premise, which is, "I can see the dead on earth".We then have the old ecclesiology, the exclusivist ecclesiology. The ecclesiology of Vatican Council II is exclusivist. Since it affirms the rigorist interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in Ad Gentes 7, which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.LG 16,LG 8,UR 3,NA 2 etc are not known exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 or the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. We are left with the old ecclesiology.

Who agrees with you?

Archbishop Thomas E.Gullickson says Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/11/archbishop-thomas-egullickson-says.html

DEAN OF THEOLOGY AT ST. ANSELM SAYS THERE ARE NO KNOWN EXCEPTIONS TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

Implicit intention, invincible ignorance and a good conscience (LG 16) in Vatican Council II do not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus –John Martigioni 
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JULY 11, 2016
Fr.Serafino Lanzetta and Joseph Shaw need to correct themself and then they will have a new perspective on the Council : new theology violates the Principle of Non Contradiction
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/07/frlanzetta-and-joseph-shaw-need-to.html

Anonymous Catholics object to Amoris Laeitia : Pope not in heresy

Catholic academics and pastors appeal to the College of Cardinals over Amoris laetitia

Among the 45 signatories are Catholic prelates, scholars, professors, authors, and clergy from various pontifical universities, seminaries, colleges, theological institutes, religious orders, and dioceses around the world. They have asked the College of Cardinals, in their capacity as the Pope's official advisers, to approach the Holy Father with a request that he repudiate “the errors listed in the document in a definitive and final manner, and to authoritatively state that Amoris laetitia does not require any of them to be believed or considered as possibly true.”

“We are not accusing the pope of heresy,” said a spokesman for the authors, “but we consider that numerous propositions in Amoris laetitiacan be construed as heretical upon a natural reading of the text. Additional statements would fall under other established theological censures, such as scandalous, erroneous in faith, and ambiguous, among others.”

The 1983 Code of Canon Law states that “According to the knowledge, competence, and expertise which they possess, they [the Christian faithful] have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful” (CIC, can. 212 §3).
http://www.lmschairman.org/2016/07/catholic-academics-and-pastors-appeal.html#more

_____________________________________________________

POPE NOT IN HERESY

“We are not accusing the pope of heresy,” said a spokesman for the authors, “but we consider that numerous propositions in Amoris laetitiacan be construed as heretical upon a natural reading of the text. Additional statements would fall under other established theological censures, such as scandalous, erroneous in faith, and ambiguous, among others.”-Joseph Shaw

 MAY 7, 2016


Pope Francis uses an irrational premise to draw a non traditional and heretical conclusion on Methodists and salvation

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/05/pope-francis-uses-irrational-premise-to.html


MARCH 31, 2016


Pope Francis interprets Vatican Council II with an irrationality as do the traditionalists: the result is heresy

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/03/pope-francis-interprets-vatican-council.html


'Successor of St.Peter' interprets Vatican Council II with irrationality : magisterium still makes a factual error

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/06/successor-of-stpeter-interprets-vatican.html

Pope Francis interprets Vatican Council II with the irrational premise which comes from the Letter of the Holy Office 1949

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/02/pope-francis-interprets-vatican-council.html


The ecclesiology of Pope Francis and Cardinal Kaspar is based on the objective error in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/the-ecclesiology-of-pope-francis-and.html


From Pope Paul VI to Pope Francis... : Can popes reject an ex cathedra teaching and offer Holy Mass ? Yes, defacto this is what is being done

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/02/from-pope-paul-vi-to-pope-francis-can.html

Pope Francis, Cardinal Muller and Cardinal Ladaria are refusing to interpret Vatican Council II without the irrationality

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/pope-francis-cardinal-muller-and.html


From Pope Pius XII to Pope Francis they all have been using an irrational premise in the interpretation of magisterial texts

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/12/from-pope-pius-xii-to-pope-francis-they.html

Pope Francis presents Protestant kerygma contradicts Vatican Council II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/01/pope-francis-presents-protestant.html

Pope omits doctrine which is the basis for religious liberty

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/11/pope-francis-spoke-on-necessity-of.html

Pope Francis like the sedevacantists uses Marchetti's irrational premise and inference. He accepts the Council with this error
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/06/pope-francis-like-sedevantists-uses.html

Pope Francis wants the Franciscans of the Immaculate to accept Vatican Council II with theIRRATIONAL RED column

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/02/pope-francis-wants-franciscans-of.html

No one denies that the pope has made a Cushingite error

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/10/no-one-denies-that-pope-has-made.html

Pope Francis' error has made salvation theology over the last 60 -plus years obsolete





What a long line of religious formators who will teach heresy like our pope
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/what-long-line-of-religious-formators.html


Magisterial Heresy -2



The Magisterial Heresy - 3

Pope Francis is contradicting Pope John Paul II

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/09/pope-francis-in-contradicting-pope-john.html
-Lionel Andrades

Could CMTV theologically say that there are no known cases of the baptism of desire or blood, and being saved in invincible ignorance, in 2016,with or without the baptism of water?


https://youtu.be/pDWeC5qsvew



Lionel: I agree with Michael Voris here.
However theologically there is no clarification from Church Militant TV(CMTV).Since for CMTV the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This was the view in an otherwise good Mic'd Up program on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus hosted by Christine Niles,with Michael Voris commenting from Rome.
CMTV accepts the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which says the baptism of desire etc,allegedly without the baptism of water, are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma EENS, expressed well by Michael Voris here on this Vortex.
Michael has in the past however also said that 'every one does not need to be a card carrying member of the Church'. Simon Rafe also supports this theological position of Michael Voris which is that of the liberals and traditionalists.
It is part of the new theology, based on a false premise, which makes the new theology contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction.
It is this new theology which is part of the CMTV interpretation of Vatican Council II.
So Vatican Council II would say for the CMTV team that all need to enter the Church (AG 7, LG 14) but some do not need to do so (LG 16. LG 14).Here LG 16, LG 14,for CMTV, refer to explicit cases based on the false premise.
This would not be how I would interpret Vatican Council II. LG 16 and LG 14 would refer to hypothetical cases. So it would not be an exception to Michael Voris' understanding of salvation, as expressed clearly and directly in this Vortex.
So the Catechism of the Catholic Church for CMTV would say all need the baptism of water for salvation(CCC 1257) and it would also say contradictorily that God is not limited to the Sacraments, and so all do not need the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.This is an expression of the new theology.
For me CCC 1257 would not contradict itself as it does for CMTV, since we do not know any case in 2016 or in the past, of someone saved without the baptism of water because God is not limited to the Sacraments. So 'God is not limited to the Sacraments',for me, does not contradict Michael's clear presentation of Catholic salvation in this Vortex.
This new theology on salvation has a direct bearing on the liturgy.It influences are lex orandi, lex credendi and lex vivendi which Christine Niles mentioned on the last Friday Download.It was on the Sacred Liturgy and Cardinal Sarah's comments on the priest facing East and all communicants needing to kneel.

THEOLOGICAL CLARIFICATION NEEDED
Could CMTV theologically say that there are no known cases of the baptism of desire or blood, and being saved in invincible ignorance, in 2016,with or without the baptism of water?
Also that there could be no such known case in the past for us human beings?
When the saints and the popes referred to the baptism of desire etc they were referring to invisible- for- them baptism of desire.There were no objective cases, seen in the flesh?
So the baptism of desire etc being invisible and not known in personal cases is not, and was not, an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
It means that the magisterium made a mistake in the second part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 when it assumed hypothetical cases, are known exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Also mentioning these cases in Vatican Council II was a mistake.They are superfluous passages.
-Lionel Andrades




JULY 11, 2016


The Download—Restoring the Liturgy ( Why cannot this be lex credendi, lex orandi,lex vivendi for CMTV?)

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/07/the-downloadrestoring-liturgy.html