Monday, July 4, 2016

How can the Holy Spirit contradict the magisterium of the past and that too with an irrationality? The present two popes and the Vatican Curia need to be in union with the Roman See over the centuries, on this issue



Outside The Church There Is No Salvation - EWTN.com

Outside The Church There Is No Salvation

The doctrine that "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won't submit to the Magisterium of the Church. 
Lionel: The contemporary magisterium of the Church will not submit to the pre-Council of Trent magisterium.
Instead the two popes and the Vatican Curia interpret the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus using philosophical subjectivism ( visible cases of the baptism of desire).They confuse  what is invisible as being visible, subjective as being objective.In this way,with this irrationality, the dogma is discarded and it is replaced with a ' doctrine' (EWTN) or an 'aphorism'(CCC 846).
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Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task.
Lionel: However the liberal theologians with the support of ecclesiastics have broken away with the traditional, centuries old interpretation of the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. They did this with the use of an irrational premise and conclusion.This is a rebellion
against 'those to whom Christ entrusted that task' over the centuries.
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 This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including "outside the Church no salvation."
Lionel: However there is a problem. For the magisterium after the Council of Trent , the baptism of desire is not a hypothetical case, as if it was over the centuries. Instead it is considered an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.In other words it is explicit for it to be an exception.It is not a hypothetical case. This was the magisterial understanding of the second part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.It  was  referenced in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.It has also been approved by Pope Benedict in two theological papers of the International Theological Commission,Vatican.
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Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:
We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?
Lionel: The passage in blue is the Feeneyite, traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The part in purple refers to a hypothetical case for us human beings.So it is not an exception to the dogma as it was wrongly suggested in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.However if the passage in purple is considered to be an exception to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church then it would be an error.
we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?
This would then be the Cushingite theology, the new theology.It would be a perspective based on an irrational premise ( known cases of persons saved in invincible ignorance and without the baptism of water) and a non traditional conclusion( these known cases of being saved in invincible ignorance are examples of salvation outside the Church and exceptions to the dogma on salvation).


Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:
It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.
Lionel: Yes and this refers to a hypothetical case. It is a theoretical possibility. It is said with goodwill and it is speculation.However if it is considered an exception to the dogma on salvation then it is irrational, non traditional, an innovation and heresy. It would be a new theology, Cushingite theology.
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These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II,
Lionel: They are consistent with Vatican Council II ( Cushingite). They would not be consistent with Vatican Council II (Feeneyite). For example Lumen Gentium 16 on invincible ignorance would refer to explicit cases in Vatican Council II ( Cushingite). They would be implicit in Vatican Council II ( Feeneyite). It is the same Vatican Council II but with two different conclusions.Vatican Council II (Cushingite) is a break with Tradition. Vatican Council II(Feeneyite) supports Tradition and there would be no change in ecclesiology before and after Vatican Council II.
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 and the Catechism of the Catholic Church,
Lionel:Similarly there can be an interpretation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church with the theology of Cushingism or Feeneyism.(See this blog's tags on  Catechism of the Catholic Church, Feeneyism, Right Hand Side Column, Left Hand Side Column,Cushingism etc)
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 as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium.
Lionel: The magisterium is using irrational Cushingism as a theology.It is interpreting magisterial documents with the irrational premise and conclusion. Even magisterial document ,like Redemptoris Missio and Dominus Iesus, were written with ambiguous passages based on Cushingism.How can the Holy Spirit guide the Church to teach that there are hypothetical cases which are not hypothetical in the present times? How can the Holy Spirit make an objective error?.How can the Holy Spirit teach that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, when we cannot know of any exception as human beings?This is all human error contradicting the magisterium of the past.How can the Holy Spirit contradict the magisterium of the past and that too with an irrationality?
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 It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.
Lionel: This could also be said about the present two popes and the Vatican Curia.They need to be in union with the Roman See over the centuries, on this issue.
-Lionel Andrades

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL


https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm


Without the error of the Cushingite theology we are back to the old ecclesiology.There is no Anonymous Christian who is saved outside the Church: Catholic Answers confusion.

from Catholic Answers

What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means

One of the most misunderstood teachings of the Catholic Church is this one:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation" (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus).
Those trying to grasp the meaning of this teaching often struggle with its formulations by various Church Fathers and Church Councils down through history. Of course, to understand an isolated formulation ofany Church teaching, one must study the historical context within which it was written: why it was written, what was going on in the Church at the time, who the intended audience was, and so on. One must discover how the magisterium (teaching office) of the Church understands its own teaching.
Lionel:The magisterium has made a mistake. It has assumed hypothetical cases are objectively known in the present times. It then postulates that these known cases are practical exceptions to the traditional teaching on outside the Church there is no salvaion.
It also uses this irrational thinking in the interpretation of Vatican Council II, to project the Council as a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the rest of Tradition.
Of course Catholic Answers also makes this same error with reference to Outside the Church there is no salvation and also in the interpretation  of Vatican Council II.
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 If someone fails to do this and chooses, rather, to simply treat a particular formulation as a stand-alone teaching, he runs the risk of seriously misunderstanding it.
Lionel:
The official teaching of the Church, of the contemporary magisterium, is official heresy. It is  break with the magisterium of the Church before the Council of Trent.It uses an irrational premise and conclusion.It depends on philosophical subjectivism to change the traditional teaching in salvation theology.Where are the baptism of desire cases objectively visible for them to be exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation? Who can subjectively know of someone saved in invincible ignorance and without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church?Who can meet someone saved outside the Church?
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In recent times, the Church has recognized that its teaching about the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation has been widely misunderstood, so it has "re-formulated" this teaching in a positive way. 
Lionel: It has discarded the traditional de fide teachings.The Nicene Creed has been changed.The Athanasius Creed has been put aside.Vatican Council II is re-interpreted as a break with Tradition, even though a rational choice is available.
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Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address this topic: "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body" (CCC 846).
Lionel: This is the new theology.This is Cushingism.It is accomodating the baptism of desire and blood and being saved in invincible ignorance.It assumes these hypothetical cases are explicit and so are relevant or exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This is the Anonymous Christian theory of Rahner and Ratzinger.
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In keeping with the Church’s current spirit of ecumenism, this positive reformulation comes across less harshly than previous negative formulations. Even so, it remains quite controversial.
Lionel:The new theology is based on there being explicit exceptions to the dogma on outside the church there is no salvation.So it has made the dogma obsolete. It has created a new ecclesiology on non Catholic and non Christian religions. This is the new ecclesiology based on the objective error in the second part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.Unfortunately the tradtitionalists and sedevacantists are still unaware of it.
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.VerbumCATHOLIC ANSWERS SUMMER SERIES

Jesus, the Way

So, let’s see how this new formulation squares with Scripture.

The first part of the reformulated teaching—"all salvation comes from Christ the Head"—is quite easy for all Christians, even non-Catholics, to understand and embrace.

Lionel: Yes but the dogma does not restict salvation to a vague belief in Christ. It demands belief in Christ in only the Catholic Church and according to the Catholic Church.
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 It echoes Jesus’ own words recorded by John: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (Jn 14:6).
Lionel: Jesus was speaking to a community, in the first Church, the Catholic Church. They all needed the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. They all needed to believe in Jesus' teaching in the community, the Church.There was no independent belief in Jesus .There was no Jesus without the community.No baptism of water without the Church.
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 So, Christians unanimously agree on this first part.
Lionel:
No we do not !
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 But is this all that needs to be said about how one may be saved? The Catholic Church has historically recognized the importance of explaining further the means through which salvation is offered through Christ.
When speaking of salvation, Jesus offered more details than just his words quoted above. For example, consider these three verses:
  • He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
  • [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)
  • [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
Notice that in these three verses Jesus associated salvation with baptism, confession, and the Eucharist, respectively.
Lionel: Yes here salvation is linked with the Church.
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 Catholics recognize that these sacraments are administered through the Church. In fact, in the case of the latter two, a validly ordained priest isnecessary for their administration, so the sacrament of ordination must also be associated with salvation. A primary role of the Catholic Church in conjunction with salvation is becoming quite clear.
Lionel:So being a member of the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation.Outside the Church there is no salvation.
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Why Be Catholic? (DVD)20 Answers: Jehovah's WitnessesThe Faith Of Our Fathers
This brings us to the second part of the Catechism’s formulation of the doctrine being considered: ". . . through the Church which is his Body."
Lionel. Yes we cannot separate Jesus from the Church, nor can we separate the Church from the Kingdom of God, says Pope John Paul II's Dominus Iesus (2000).
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With Him or Against Him

Since the sacraments are the ordinary means through which Christ offers the grace necessary for salvation, and the Catholic Church that Christ established is the ordinary minister of those sacraments, it is appropriate to state that salvation comes through the Church.
Lionel:Yes salvation comes through Jesus and the Catholic Church. Every one needs to be a formal member of the Church, every one needs faith and baptism, every one needs to be a physically visible member of the Church to avoid Hell.
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This is not unlike the situation that existed prior to the establishment of the Catholic Church. Even before it was fully revealed that he was the Messiah, Jesus himself taught that "salvation is from the Jews" (Jn 4:22). He pointed the woman of Samaria to the body of believers existing at that time, through which salvation would be offered to all mankind: the Jews.
Lionel:Salvation was from Jesus, a Jew, the Messiah of the Jews.The Messiah founded a new Church, he made a new Covenant, and those who followed him in the Church which He founded would be the new people of God (NA 4), the Elect.They only would be saved. In Heaven there are only Catholics.
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In a similar fashion, now that the Messiah has established his Church, Jesus might say, "salvation is from the Catholics"!
Lionel:Catholics are the new people of God.(Vatican Council II, Nostra Aetate 4).
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Recognizing this, we can see why the Church, especially during times of mass exodus (such as has happened in times when heresies have run rampant), has been even more forceful in the way it has taught this doctrine. Instead of simply pointing out how God offers salvation from Christ, through the Church, the Church has warned that there is no salvation apart from Christ, outside his Church.
Lionel:Yes.
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Since Jesus established the Catholic Church as necessary for salvation, those who knowingly and willingly reject him or his Church cannot be saved.
Lionel:Since Jesus established the Catholic Church all need faith and baptism for salvation.(Ad Gentes 7). To say those who knowingly and willingly reject him ONLY cannot be saved, is to fall into the error of the new theology. This is the Cushingite error which comes from the second part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. It wronly assumed that a person in invincible ignorance who was saved,  was not a hypothetica case but it was someone personally known.So then it was wrongly concluded that a person in invincible ignorance could be saved and was an exception to the dogma on outside the Church there is no salvation. Fr. Leonard Feeney was criticized by the Holy Office. 
So since the new doctrine was that a person in invincible ignorance could be saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church, only those who were not ignorant , who 'knew' and did not enter the Church, were considered to be on the way to Hell.So we have LG 14 in Vatican Council II contradicting AG 7 and the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation.LG 14 says only those who know while AG 7 says. The confusion comes the contradiction in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. The first part of the Letter is Feeneyite and the second part is Cushingite.The second part contradicts the first part.Similarly we have orthodox passages and ambigous passages in Vatican Council II.The ambigous passages are Cushingite passages.
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 We see this in Jesus’ teaching: "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters" (Mt 12:30). 
Lionel: This afirms the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation, without the Cushingite theology; without the new theology of Rahner,Ratzinger, Congar, Dupuis and others.They built upon the philosophical subjectivism which was created the new theology. They followed up on the work of Cardinal Richard Cushing, Fr.John Courtney Murray and the other Jesuits.
The precedent set by Cardinal Gibbons when he considered the desire for the baptism of water by a hypothetical case of a catechumen, who dies before receiving it, as being a personally known case. So it was called a baptism and placed in the Baptism Section of the Baltimore Catechism. This was even though there was no known case of the baptism of desire and there could not be any known case. Also the baptism of desire was not physically visible like the baptism, of water and it could not be repeated like the baptism of water.
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Also: "[I]f he [a sinning brother] refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Mt 18:17). Paul warned similarly: "As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned" (Ti 3:10-11).
Having said all this, we must recognize that this doctrine is not as far reaching as some imagine it to be. People will sometimes ask, "Does this means non-Catholics are going to hell?" Not necessarily.
Lionel:Not necessarily? Catholic Answes knows of an exception?
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Invincibly Ignorant

The Church recognizes that God does not condemn those who are innocently ignorant of the truth about his offer of salvation. 
Lionel: So do we know any such case ? Is this not theoretical speculation ? It is a reference to a possibility which is only theoretical.
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Regarding the doctrine in question, the Catechism of the Catholic Church(quoting Vatican II document Lumen Gentium, 16) states:
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)
Lionel: Here we have the new theology.This is the Cushingite theology.However a weakness of the Cushingite theology is that we can re- interpret it to support orthodoxy. We can assume that hypothetical cases are just hypothetical. So they do not contradict the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation.I call this the Feeneyite theology. 'Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church' and who are allegedly saved, refers to an invisible case.So an invisible case, a speculative case cannot be an exception to the dogma outside the Church and the old ecclesiology.We are back to the old theology.
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What are the Origins of Baptism?


Vatican II document Gaudium Et Spes teaches similarly on the possibility of salvation:
All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery. (22)
Lionel.Here once again we see the fruits of the new theology, it comes from the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.'All men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way' and who are saved are hypothetical cases for us. They cannot be personally known.So the Cushigite theology mixes up what is invisible as being visible.
Here we have the basis for the Anonymous Christian.It speculates that there is salvation outside the Church and that it is known.
So Gaudium er Specs 22 does not contradict the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation, once we are aware that hypothetical cases are not explicit for us, they cannot be objectively known.So without the error of the Cushingite theology we are back to the old ecclesiology.There is no known Anonymous Christian who is saved outside the Church.
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This teaching is consistent with Jesus’ own teaching about those who innocently reject him: "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin" (Jn 15:22).
But once a person comes to know the truth, he must embrace it or he will be culpable of rejecting it.
Lionel . Yes!
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 We see this in Jesus’ words to the Pharisees: "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains" (Jn 9:41). Paul taught likewise concerning the Gentiles:
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:14-16)
Notice Paul’s carefully chosen words: "their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them." Paul did not say that those who are innocently ignorant of the truth will be saved; he simply keeps open the possibility of it.
Similarly, he wrote: "[I]s God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith" (Rom 3:29-30).

Necessary for Salvation

As we have seen, God introduced salvation to the world through his chosen people, the Jews. God’s revelation to the Jews found its fulfillment in Christ, the Messiah, who established the Catholic Church. The grace necessary for salvation continues to come from Christ, through his Church.
Lionel: All need to visibly enter the Church for salvation was the centuries old teaching before the contemporary magisterium was influenced by the Cushing theology.
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 Those who innocently do not know and embrace this might still attain salvation but those who knowingly and willingly choose to reject it, reject salvation on God’s terms.
Lionel:
'Those who innocently do not know and embrace the Church might still attain salvation'. O.K this is accepted theoretically, however it has nothing to do with the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation.
Similarly ' those who knowingly and willingly choose to reject it, reject salvation on God’s terms' does not refer to any one personally known. We cannot say that a particular person is in invincible ignorance and is saved and so is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla slaus.We cannot say that only those who knowingly and willingly choose to reject being a Catholic will be damned, and not all in general who do not have the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.If we knew of someone in particular then we could call out the exception.
All need to enter the Church for salvation or be damned. This was the dogmatic teaching.Who knows and who does not know can only be decided by God.We cannot use this criteria as a judgement or to postulate an exception or a new doctrine.This was the mistake of the new theology.

The Catechism (once again quoting Lumen Gentium) summarizes all this as follows:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)
Lionel: This is the traditional teaching of the Church :Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. 
However the following is the Cushingite part and it should not have been mentioned here.It is a mistake.
 Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)
-Lionel Andrades


Jim Blackburn is a Catholic Apologist, Author, and Speaker. He holds a Masters Degree in Theology from John Paul the Great Catholic University and is the author of several books including 101 Quick Questions With Catholic Answers: Marriage, Divorce, and Annulment20 Answers:...

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

Did the Jews lose their Authority on the Truth?

We Can't Imagine the Pain of Hell

They are correct Vatican Council II is a break with Tradition but it is Vatican Council II interpreted with the new theology.Omit the new theology and the perspective on Vatican Council II dramatically changes

XYZ:
Lionel, rather than giving us your personal interpretation of the salvation dogma,
Lionel:
Could you please clarify what was the teaching of the salvation dogma and what is my personal opinion which you refer to here? Is it different?
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please produce just one quote from the Magisterium that says one must be a "formal member" (in your words, a "card carrying member") of the Catholic Church to be saved.
Lionel:
I am referring to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus defined by three Church Councils. I refer to Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441.

OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION

  • “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
  • “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
  • The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
  • http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation
  • __________________________________________


Again, produce the quotation (not your interpretation) from the Pope or council who teaches this doctrine.

Lionel:
Here is the quotation (above).
When I say every one needs to be a card carrying member of the Church or have his name on the Parish Baptism Register or that every one needs to be a formal member of the Church I am referring to how the saints and popes understood this teaching for centuries.It was based on the teachings of the three Church Councils cited above.
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Sorry, Lionel, that doesn't cut it. I asked you to provide me the teaching which actually says one must be a "formal member" of the Catholic Church to be saved. If you cannot provide me a quotation which uses the terminology "formal member," then you are providing me your interpretation (which differs from St. Thomas and many other Doctors), and not the teaching of the Church. Again, provide a quotation from a Pope or council that uses the terminology "formal member."
Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 says all need faith and baptism for salvation.The text of the dogma EENS which I cited does not say all need faith and baptism for salvation.However AG 7 is expressing the same message as Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.
Similarly when the phrase is used all need to be formal members of the Church for salvatiion, or the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water( CCC 1257) it is expressing the same message as the dogma EENS.
This is the same way of expressing the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.
Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274):


“There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church.” (Summa Theologiae)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

One needs to be a formal member of the Church for salvation, one needs to have 'faith and baptism' for salvation is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas and St.Augustine and numerous other saints.This is not a personal view of mine.
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430):
“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem).

By formal member of the Church I mean to believe in the Nicene Creed, to believe in the Athanasius Creed to believe in the faith and moral teachngs of the Catholic Church. Here it is expressed by St. Robert Bellarmine.This is not a personal view of St. Bellarmine.

Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621):
“Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.” (De Sacramento Baptismi)

St.Thomas Aquinas, St.Augustine and St. Robert Bellarimine here are using the traditional theology of Feeneyism.'No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church'(St.Augustine).The baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are hypothetical and so they are not exceptions to the teaching on the Church, being like the only Ark of Noah that saves in the flood and every one needs to physically get into the Ark to be saved.

For you the dominant theology is Cushingism. So for you the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance refer to physically known cases in the present times.Otherwise how could there be exceptions, if a person does not exist. So every one does not need to find salvation in the Catholic Church for you, theologically. Every one does not need to be a card carrying member of the Church.Every one does not need to have his name on the Parish Baptism Register for salvation. There are exceptions for you.
You contradict AG 7 and LG 14 which says all need faith and baptism. While you re-interpret LG 16, LG 8 , UR 3 etc to refer to known cases, instead of invisible and hypothetical cases.
When I say every one needs to be a formal member of the Church I mean every one needs Catholic faith ,which includes the faith and moral teachings of the Church and the Sacraments.This must also include the baptism of water.
Due to the Cushingite theology which you use, you are saying that every one does not need to enter the Church and that St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine and St. Robert Bellarmine whom I have quoted here are wrong?

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Once again, you have failed to meet your burden. You have produced no quote which says one must be a "formal member" of the Church to be saved.
Lionel:
I have produced no quote that one must be a formal member of the Church to be saved since those two words are not there in the text of Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.For me those two words explain the meaning of the text of the three Councils which defined EENS.I have the freedom of the English language and rational thinking to express and explain myself.
Similarly I believe 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for 'salvation'.This does not mean that I cannot say all need faith and baptism for salvation, since this phrase is not there in the Council of Florence 1441.All need faith and baptism is the phrase used in Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14).It is equivalent to  saying all need to be formal members of the Church (with faith and baptism).
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And it is quite inconceivable that you would quote Sts. Augustine, Thomas and Bellarmine, since they all taught that a baptism of desire (an act of the will which supplied for the defect) joined one to the Church.
Lionel:
This is an important point you have mentioned.It is here where you go wrong. It was the liberal theologians in the U.S who reinterpreted all references to the baptism of desire as being explicit, objectively known and personally visible.Then they could postulated  that the baptism of desire is an exception to EENS.
You and I know that the baptism of desire is ALWAYS implicit, subjective, invisible for us, hypothetical and not concrete.
So when you refer to the baptism of desire being mentioned by some saint you are referring to an objective case,  while for me it is an invisible case. So for me it is not an exception to the rigorist and traditional interpretation of the dogma EENS, as expressed by Aquinas , Augustine and Bellarmine.For you it is.
This is the difference in our perspective.
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Let me explain to you where your theology is wrong. You say the following: When I say every one needs to be a formal member of the Church I mean every one needs Catholic faith ,which includes the faith and moral teachings of the Church and the Sacraments.This must also include the baptism of water.
Lionel:
Yes everyone needs physically visible and repeatable baptism of water in the Catholic Church. The baptism of water is given to adults with Catholic Faith.
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You err by equating the Catholic faith (the interior virtue) with formal membership in the Church.

Lionel:
By Catholic faith I mean visible for us baptism of water.Seen with the naked eye.
By Catholic faith I mean the teachings of the Church which can be learnt and expressed out aloud.
I mean the visible Sacraments of Confession, Baptism etc.
This is all seen and known exteriorly.
So we have two theologies.
1.Feeneyism says every one needs to enter the Church with faith and baptism and there are no explicit, exterior, seen in the flesh exceptions.The entry into the Church has physically visible signs.There are no physically visible exceptions.
2.Cushingism says every one does not need to enter the Church since there are explicit, seen in the flesh exceptions to all needing to be physically visible members of the Church.This is irrational.Since in general there cannot be any physically exception for us human beings.
XYZ,you are using Cushingism
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Baptism of water results in formal membership, but God can infuse the interior virtues into the soul through an act of man's will (God, of course, moving man to will it).
Lionel:
Baptism of water results in formal membership. Yes I agree. I also like your phrase. 'formal membership'.
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If one dies with supernatural faith, hope and charity, he is saved.
Lionel:
O.K this is a reference to a hypothetical case. This is a theoretical statement. So it has nothing to do with all needing formal membership in the Church for salvation; all need to be Catholic with visible baptism and visible aspects of the faith.
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Even Fr. Feeney recognized the same. He taught that God can indeed infuse the virtues without water baptism.
Lionel:
O.K. It is not an issue with me.It is a reference to a hypothetical case known only to God.
Hypothetical cases are only hypothetical.They cannot be concrete, seen in the flesh exceptions to EENS.
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Fr. Feeney believed in baptism of desire. He erred by concluding that such a man, who was already in the state of grace, did not go to Heaven if he didn't get the water.
Lionel:
We can assume this was the teaching of Fr. Feeney but either way, for me (Lionel Andrades) the baptism of desire is a hypothetical case.So it was not an exception to the dogma EENS.For you it is not hypothetical. So this is why you mention it with reference to EENS and Fr. Leonard Feeney?
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That position is heretical because Trent teaches that such a man in the state of grace is justified, an heir of God, a son of God, in whom dwells the Blessed Trinity.
Lionel:
O.K but this is a hypothetical case we are referring to.It is not someone personally known.So we cannot link it with EENS.It is not an exception to EENS as expressed by Aquinas, Augustine and Bellarmine. Speculatively, hypothetically, in faith, in principle you can discuss if it is heresy but in reality it has nothing to do with EENS.It cannot be an exception to all needing to physically enter the Church with physically visible for us baptism of water.
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Again, your problem is not that you have the freedom to express yourviews,
but that your views are not held by any saint, Pope or Doctor of the Church.
Lionel
I have quoted you the saints saying all need to be in the Catholic Church for salvation, all need faith and the baptism of water for salvation.This is not your view ,nor of the SSPX and the sedevacantists, since you all consider theoretical, hypothetical cases as exceptions to what the
saints say in the citations I sent you.

All of you (trads, sedes and libs) cannot accept this since in your mind, a person can in potential be saved outside the Church( correct hypothetically, speculatively) and that this case is an exception to all needing to faith and baptism for salvation( in other words it is not a hypothetical case for you all, since it is an exception.This is your mistake).

This is the difference in our perspective.

You have the advantage of being in harmony with the liberals and the pollitical Left while also claiming your are a traditionalist and not a sedevacantist.Some badge of honour.
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None of them have ever equated salvation with formal membership in the Church, even though they have equated water baptism with formal membership in the Church.
Lionel:
JXYZ you still cannot see the contradiction in what you are saying here.
You are saying that the saints have equated water baptism with formal membership in the Church. Agreed.
The saints have equated water baptism with formal membership in the Church and water baptism is given to an adult with faith, Catholic Faith.So here you are affirming the dogma EENS.Fine so far.I agree with you.
However you are also saying that none of the saints equated salvation with the necessity of being a visible member of the Church, with faith and baptism, since there could be someone saved outside the Church.There could be someone known to God who can be saved outside the Church, the man in the forest in invincible ignorance or the saint with the desire for the baptism of water but who dies before receiving it or the saint who dies with the baptism of blood.Is this what you 
mean?
This entire paragraph is meaningless with reference to EENS.
'since there could be someone saved outside the Church.There could be someone known to God who can be saved outside the Church, the man in the forest in invincible ignorance or the saint with the desire for the baptism of water but who dies before receiving it or the saint who dies with the baptism of blood.'

This is the new theology, based on hypothetical cases being objective.

There cannot be ' someone saved outside the Church' who is visible and personally known to us. So it cannot be relevant to EENS.

There cannot be someone known to us human beings who is ' known to God who can be saved outside the Church'.
Similarly there is no known case of the ' man in the forest in invincible ignorance' who has been saved and is in Heaven. A theoretical possibility for you is a known case then you take the next step in error and infer that it is an exception to all needing formal membership in the Church for salvation.
We can refer theoretically to 'the saint who dies with the baptism of blood' and without the baptism of water but we can never know any such person and so he cannot be relevant to EENS.
The new theology makes it relevant.
We can see the new theology in CCC 846 ( outside the Church there is no salvation) and CCC 1257 ( The Necessity of Baptism).It is there in Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14).
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 And there is a simple reason for that: formal membership in the Church is not necessary for salvation.
Lionel:
You contradict yourself.Earlier you have said that the baptism of water is necessary for all for salvation.You are unknowingly trying to accomodate the new theology which says hypothetical, unknown or theoretical cases are objective,known and visible exceptions to the teaching on all neeeding faith and baptism for salvation.
This was the error in Vatican Council II. The new theology runs through Vatican Council II.This a Cushingite error and it is not known to the traditionalists or the sedevacantists.
Instead these two groups have adopted the new theology in the interpretation of magisterial documents, since this was done by their leaders at the time of Vatican Council II.
XYZ,
you are part of that traditionalist school of thought influenced by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the Hildebrands, Michael Davis and others.They are correct Vatican Council II is a break with Tradition but it is Vatican Council II interpreted with the new theology.Omit
the new theology and the perspective on Vatican Council II dramatically changes.
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 One can be joined to the Church by membership or desire to be saved.
It's that simple, Lionel, but you are too proud to see it.
Lionel:
Theoretically, hypothetically, in an unknown case, speculatively one can be joined to the Church.
Defacto, in reality, practically,objectively every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation( to avoid Hell).
Since you have said every one needs the baptism of water for salvation and that this is what the saints taught would you agree with me here?
Theoretically, hypothetically, in an unknown case, speculatively one can be joined to the Church.
Defacto, in reality, practically,objectively every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation( to avoid Hell).

Theoretically, hypothetically, in an unknown case, speculatively one can be joined to the Church with the baptism of desire or blood or in invincible ignorance with the baptism of water.
Defacto, in reality, practically,objectively every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation( to avoid Hell), with the baptism of water.

1.If you say theoretically, hypothetically, in an unknown case,
speculatively one can be joined to the Church with the baptism of desire or blood or in invincible ignorance WITHOUT the baptism of water ,then you contradict yourself when you say the following.
2.Defacto, in reality, practically,objectively every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation( to avoid Hell), with the baptism of water.
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For more, see our book...
Lionel:
Your book does not make the distinction between the theology of Feeneyism and Cushingism and this is at the centre of the error of the sedevacantists.If they interpreted Vatican Council II with Feeneyism; if they made the theoretical-objective distinction, which I have made here ( above), they would not have to go into sedevacantism.
They would be in position to the demand that the CDF accept Vatican Council II( Feeneyite).
-Lionel Andrades