Friday, July 1, 2016

Tragic Errors of Fr.Leonard Feeney by Fr.William Most is based on assuming hypothetical cases are explicit exceptions to the dogma EENS. This is an objective mistake

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Posts: 189
Default Extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Fr Feeney

(I'm sure this subject has arisen on this forum
 before, but before I got here...
sorry if this is repeating
 anything discussed previously.)

I was never quite clear as to the situation 

with Fr Leonard Feeney....I remember
 that he was excommunicated 
(or not?) for adhering to a STRICT 
interpretation of extra  ecclesiam 
nulla salus  (outside the Church
 there is no salvation).

What is the ACTUAL situation

 with this? Was he truly 
excommunicated, or not? 
And am I right to assume
 he did not believe in the concept
 of baptism of desire?

Thanks to anyone who can

 inform me!
Lionel: 
The magisterium at that time
 and the Archbishop of Boston
 were saying that the baptism
 of desire referred to explicit 
cases without the baptism of
 water.This was irrational and
 heretical. Fr.Leonard Feeney 
 did not  accept this.He said 
there is no known salvation 
outside the Church. 
The magisterium was being
 supported by the Masons 
and the Leftist media.


Mar 23, '08, 4:44 am
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Join Date: August 16, 2005
Posts: 2,961
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Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla
 salus and Fr Feeney

My understanding is that Fr.
 Feeney was reconciled 
to the Church shortly before 
his death. He was,
 indeed, excommunicated in
 1953
 for an INCORRECT (as
 oppossed to strict) 
interpretation of
 "Outside the Church there
 is no salvation"

Apparently one of the

 splinter groups
 of his followers is an 
antisemite group who
 deny the holocaust.
Lionel:
I do not think that Fr.
 Leonard Feeney or the
 St. Benedict Center were
 Anti-Semitic.
However the Jewish Left 
has been using the
 Anti-Semitic threat to
 control any one who 
affirms the dogma
 extra ecclesiam nulla
 salus( Feeneyite). They
 do not object 
to EENS ( Cushingite).



Join Date: April 7, 2007
Posts: 1,387
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla
 salus and Fr Feeney

He wasn't excommuncated for 
a heresy, or false teaching.
 He was excommunicated
 for failing to show up for 
his trial. He refused
 to show up for his trial
 because they 
would not tell him what 
he was being tried for,
 and therefore he wasn't
 able to properly
 prepare a defense.

He was reconciled to the
 Church without 
having to renounce, o
r even adjust, any
 teachings. 

He wasn't excommunicated
for holding to the strict 
interpretation of "no salvation

 outside the Church". In
fact, the Church

 issued a letter saying
that he was 
permitted to hold to
 his strict position. If 
you'd like, I'll locate
 and post the letter.
Lionel: 
He was affirming the dogma EENS 
according to the Church Councils,
popes and saints.They did not 
mention any explicit cases 
of the baptism of desire.We 
know that the baptism of 
desire is not explicit so it 
never was an exception to
 the dogma EENS( Feeneyite).


Old Mar 23, '08, 7:23 am
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Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 622
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam
 nulla salus and Fr Feeney

This looks like a pretty
 good article on him
 (it appears to orginate with in a 
Traditionalist website):


I think his problematic teachings
 - that got him into trouble with Rome
 - were to do with his strict requirement
 for water baptism. This goes against
 Church teaching and tradition, which 

recognizes the Baptism 

of Desire.
__________________
Lionel:
He affirmed the dogma EENS according 
to the 16th century missionaries.
The popes and saints were referring
 to an invisible  hypothetical baptism of
 desire.The baptism of desirecan only be
 hypotehtical and invisible for us human beings.
A hypothetical case cannot be an
 exception to the strict interpretation
 of the dogma EENS.The Letter of the 
Holy Office 1949 made a mistake. The 
magisterium made an objective
 mistakes.


 Mar 23, '08, 7:23 am
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Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 622
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Fr Feeney

This looks like a pretty good article on him
 (it appears to orginate with in a 
Traditionalist website):
I think his problematic teachings - that got 

him into trouble with Rome - were to do

 with his strict requirement for water

 baptism. This goes against Church 

teaching and tradition, which 
recognizes the Baptism 
of Desire.
__________________
Lionel:
He affirmed the dogma EENS 
according to the 16th 
century missionaries.
The popes and saints were 
referring to an invisible
  hypothetical baptism of desire.
The baptism of desire
can only be hypothetical and 
invisible for us human beings.
A hypothetical case cannot be 
an exception to the
 strict interpretation of the
 dogma EENS.The Letter
 of the Holy Office 1949
 made a mistake. The 
magisterium made an
 objective mistakes.


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Posts: 201
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla 
salus and Fr Feeney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax 
et Caritas View Post
He wasn't excommuncated 
for a heresy, or false teaching.
 He was
 excommunicated for failing 
to show up for his trial. He
 refused to 
show up for his trial because 
they would not tell him what
 he was
 being tried for, and therefore 
he wasn't able to properly prepare 
a defense.

He was reconciled to the 

Church without having to
 renounce, or
 even adjust, any teachings.

He wasn't excommunicated

 for holding to the strict interpretation
 of "no salvation outside the Church".
 In fact, the Church issued
 a letter saying that he was 
permitted to hold to his strict
 position.
 If you'd like, I'll locate and 
post the letter.
It seems you better post it. There are
 a lot of people who just don't
 know what happened. The modernists
 just can't believe that God 
does not Change and that he has
 certain requirements for those
 who wish to adhere to His Church.
Lionel:
He was faced with a case of Magisterial
Heresy.


Old Mar 23, '08, 9:30 am
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Join Date: December 22, 2007
Posts: 353
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla salus 
and Fr Feeney

I think the problem was he said that 
Catechumens that die before Baptism
 in the Catholic Church automatically
 go to Hell even if they're martyred, 
which is wrong. I'm not sure if Baptism 
of Desire is a required belief but
 I'm pretty sure Baptism of Blood is.
 His other teachings are fine though 
not the mainstream view.
Lionel:
The case of the catechumen 
was a hypothetical 
case.So it could not be 
relevant to the dogma
 EENS unless it was assumed 
that the catechumen
 was actually a personally known 
case to be an
 exception to EENS(Feeneyite) .
This was the 
Magisterial Mistake.
 It has led to  an unprecedented 
Magisterial Heresy.


 Mar 24, '08, 4:03 am
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Join Date: September 19, 2005
Posts: 764
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla
 salus and Fr Feeney

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax et 
Caritas View Post
He wasn't excommuncated 
for a heresy, or false teaching.
 He was
 excommunicated for failing to 
show up for his trial. He refused to 
show up for his trial because they 
would not tell him what he was
 being tried for, and therefore he 
wasn't able to properly prepare a
 defense.

He was reconciled to the Church

 without having to renounce, or
 even adjust, any teachings.

He wasn't excommunicated for 

holding to the strict interpretation
 of "no salvation outside the Church". 
In fact, the Church issued
 a letter saying that he was 
permitted to hold to his strict 
position.
 If you'd like, I'll locate and pos
t the letter.
I would actually like to see it if 
you can find it. I don't doubt you,
 I'm just interested. Thanks.
Lionel:
The magisterium made a factual error.


Old Mar 24, '08, 2:27 pm
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Join Date: June 24, 2004
Posts: 16,340
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla
 salus and Fr Feeney

I was living in New England at 
the time and later in Massachusetts.
 I remember that he was 
excommunicated for refusal 
to go to Rome
 when ordered, and that he 
was reunited with the Church
 by Cardinal
 Cushing shortly before his 
death. I don't remember any of the 
details beyond that.

He was an old friend of Cardinal

 Cushing, and the Cardinal was very 
supportive of his friends. I did hear
 that his elevation to Cardinal was
 delayed several years because of
 his failure to take stronger action
 in the matter, which force Rome to
 get involved.
__________________
I have set before you life and death,

 blessing and curse; therefore
 choose life, that you and your 
descendants may live,
Lionel:
Cardinal Cushing was in heresy
when he changed the dogma
 EENS by assuming there 
 and to assume there were
 known exceptions.This is 
irrational.
Cushing and the Jesuits
 also repeated this error 
in Vatican Council II.
I do not think the
 excommunication was 
lifted by Cardinal Cushing.
Instead he used his 
ecclesiatical power to 
suppress the dogmatic 
teaching and create a 
new doctrine on salvation 
in the Catholic Church.


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Join Date: November 9, 2004
Posts: 2,940
Religion: Catholic (typical hardcore papist)
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla
 salus and Fr Feeney

Wasn't his reconciliation with
 the Church done in part with him
 affirming the Athanasian Creed?

http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

Or is this just a rumor?
God Bless
Scylla
__________________
1 Timothy 3:15
Lionel: 
Yes he affirmed the Athanasius Creed
 which says outside the Church 
there is no salvation.It does not say 
that there are exceptions
 and the baptism of desire is one of 
 them.


Mar 24, '08, 3:02 pm
jeanannemarie's Avatar
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Join Date: February 4, 2008
Posts: 429
Religion: True Catholic
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Fr Feeney

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolsDaughter View Post
(I'm sure this subject has arisen on
 this forum before, but
 before I got here...sorry if this is
 repeating anything
 discussed previously.)

I was never quite clear as to the 

situation with Fr Leonard 
Feeney....I remember that he was 
excommunicated (or not?) 
for adhering to a STRICT interpretation
 of extra ecclesiam
 nulla salus (outside the Church there 
is no salvation).

What is the ACTUAL situation with 

this? Was he truly 
excommunicated, or not? And am 
I right to assume 
he did not believe in the concept 
of baptism of desire?

Thanks to anyone who can inform 

me!
When I noticed that the poster called 
YERUSALYIM stated that Fr Feeny had 
a follower connected
 with antisemitism, 
I wondered at your motive for bringing 
up this topic. If you 
want to find info on Fr Feeny, I wondered
 why you don't just
 research him yourself? It shouldn't be
 hard to find all the
 info you want online.
Lionel:
Much of the information on Fr. 
Leonard Feeney
 available on line is controlled.
The sources are
 also pro-Left.They have a
 political bias.


 Mar 24, '08, 3:28 pm
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Join Date: March 21, 2008
Posts: 189
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla
 salus and Fr Feeney

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanannemarie View Post
When I noticed that the poster called
 YERUSALYIM stated
 that Fr Feeny had a follower 
connected with antisemitism, 
I wondered at your motive for
 bringing up this topic. If you 
want to find info on Fr Feeny,
 I wondered why you don't 
just research him yourself? It 
shouldn't be hard to find
 all the info you want online.
For that matter, anyone with 
questions about anything Catholic
 shouldn't ask here, but research it.

I was hoping there might be some

 adherents of Fr Feeney 's 
here, and that they could give their
 input.
Lionel:
An injustice was done to Fr. 
Leonard Feeney.
The Jesuits are still teaching
 heresy.



 Mar 24, '08, 3:31 pm
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Join Date: February 9, 2005
Posts: 9,342
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla
 salus and Fr Feeney

This letter from the Holy Office 
in 1949 dealt particularly with
 Fr. Feeney's group. It's a good
 read on this issue:

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixe.html
__________________
"Let prayer delight thee more 

than disputations, and the 
charity which buildeth up more 
than the knowledge which
 puffeth up."--St. Robert 
Bellarmine

Lionel:
The second part of the Letter 
(1949) assumed hypothetical 
cases are objectively known 
in the present times.This is an 
objective mistake in philosophy.
Upon this philosophy is
 based the new theology, the
 Cushingite theology.


Mar 25, '08, 11:47 am
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Join Date: June 24, 2004
Posts: 16,340
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Extra ecclesiam nulla 
salus and Fr Feeney

Father Most has an interesting
 article on the TRAGIC ERRORS 
OF LEONARD FEENEY 

Lionel:
Tragic Errors of Fr.Leonard 
Feeney by Fr.William Most is 
based on assuming
hypothetical cases are explicit
 exceptions to the dogma
 EENS. This is an objective
 mistake.


Quote:
First, he was excommunicated for
disobedience, refusing to go

 to Rome to explain his position. 
Then
the Holy Office, under Pius XII,

 sent a letter to the Archbishop 
of
Boston, condemning Feeney's

 error. (It is known that Pius XII
personally checked the English 

text of that letter). In the very
first paragraph pointed out what 

is obvious: we must avoid private
interpretation of Scripture -- for

 that is strictly Protestant. But
then the letter said we must also

 avoid private interpretation of the
official texts of the Church. To 

insist on our own private
interpretation, especially when 

the Church contradicts that, is pure
Protestant attitude.
He goes on to give an extensive
 selection of Church quotations 
on the
 subject of salvation outside the
 Church and concludes:
Quote:
Let us add one more thing.
 In the parable of the talents,
 the man who
hid his talent told the master 

he knew the master was a hard
 man. The
master replied that he would judge

 him out of his own mouth, and
condemned him. So when a Feenyite

 comes up for judgment, we pray that
God may not follow the pattern given

 in the parable and say: You
insisted I was a monster. Very good,

 I will be a monster to you. Hell
is your place.
__________________
I have set before you life and death, 

blessing and curse; therefore
 choose life, that you and your 
descendants may live,

https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=4007409004435288027#editor/target=post;postID=104394572969092294


-Lionel Andrades