Saturday, January 9, 2016

I am not criticizing the theology per se. I am criticizing it's being placed with reference to EENS as an exception.

Here is a comment on the blog post :
Meaningless, superflous theology in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949

You are falling onto error based on your private judgment.  The theology in the Holy Office letter is nothing but the common theology of the Church, which had been taught in seminaries for centuries before the Letter was issued.  The best thing you can do is set aside your personal opinion and accept the theology contained in that letter.  You should also read our book, specifically chapter 4, as it delves very deep into this issue.  

Your still missing the point in this above report.
I am not criticizing the theology per se.
I am criticizing it's being placed with reference to EENS as an exception.

The theology in the Holy Office letter is nothing but the common theology of the Church, which had been taught in seminaries for centuries before the Letter was issued.
Yes but the connection was not made with EENS.
For St. Robert Bellarmine, was being saved with the  baptism of desire, explicit? Did he any where state this ? Did he infer that the  baptism of desire must exclude the baptism of water and it would be an exception to EENS?
The Council of Trent mentions 'and the desireof'. Does it state that this is explicit? No.It has to be inferred as such.Does it state that it is an explicit exception to EENS? No.It has to be wrongly inferred as such.
So the inference is made but the text does not state that 'the desireof' refers to someone saved without the baptism of water and so it is an exception to EENS.
So who makes the inference is important. The inference is made in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.I do not. I accept the theology as possibilities only. Theoretical possibilities. Invisible cases for us in 2016. So they are irrelevant to EENS.I have avoided the wrong inference.
It is the same theology above but with two interpretations. One with the irrational inference and the other without it.
 The passages I have quoted above it is wrongly assumed by Cardinal Marchetti Selvaggiani as referring  toknown cases. So these objectively visible cases, for him,  become relevant to the dogma EENS. They are inferred to be exceptions by him personally.Zero cases in our reality are assumed to be exceptions to the dogma EENS.
So the theology in itself is not a problem. It is the inference which creates the error.It was wrong to infer that hypothetical cases were explicit and so exceptions or relevant to EENS.

The same inference is made by the sedevacantists CMRI,MHFM and the community of Bishop Sanborn.They all infer that LG 16, LG 8, UR 3, NA 2, etc refer to explicit cases in the present times. So they conclude Vatican Council II (LG 16 etc) is a break with the dogma EENS, the Syllabus of Errors etc.
So they say critically that this non traditional conclusion  cannot be the teaching of the Church ( they are correct but they do not know the cause). So they criticze the popes and have gone into sedevacantism.

When I ask them if LG 16 etc is explicit or implicit,visible or invisible for us, they will not answer. I tell them that  they (LG 16 etc)  are invisible for me.So LG 16 does not contradict the dogma EENS. The old ecclesiology has not changed on other religions and ecumenism.There is nothing in the Council to contradict EENS while AG 7 and LG 14 support EENS. So with ecclesiology constant, as with the past centuries, where is the basis for their sedevacantism. It is not there in Vatican Council II.
-Lionel Andrades

Meaningless, superflous theology in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949

The theology mentioned in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949, is meaningless and does not apply.
In a way they kind of duped all of us, including me.
There is no physical case of the baptism of desire.
There is no known case of the baptism of desire.
We cannot meet ot see any one saved with the baptism of desire.
Yet they have created a theology over this non existent case.
There are all sorts of theological speculation of a case which does not exist.
There is no connection between the theology of the Letter(1949) and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS).
All that theology is fine in itself it is rational and acceptable but the moment it is placed in relation to EENS it is meaningless.It has nothing to do with EENS

There are no known cases of the baptism of desire and we see here a theology is created assuming there are personally known cases.

We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (, n. 1792).
Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949

Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one holds not the least place by which we are commanded to be incorporated by baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949

Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949

In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects, necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity, but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circumstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949

Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.-
Letter of the Holy Office 1949

These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949

Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who "are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church" (AAS, 1. c., p. 243).-Letter of the Holy Office 1949

With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire...-Letter of the Holy Office 1949
-Lionel Andrades


The theology mentioned in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949, is meaningless and does not apply.In a way they kind of duped all of us, including me

Italian newspapers maintain censorship on thousands of Italian babies killed in local hospitals in a cruel way

The Prefect of Bologna has banned prayer meetings outside the hospitals and none of the Italian newspapers are reporting that thousands of Italian babies were killed in legal abortion last year (2015).The newspapers are daily reporting on immigrant babies being killed at sea but there is a censorship on the more than 1,00,000 Italian babies killed with surgical instruments.
Last Saturday a prayer vigil was held outside a hospital in Rome for which permission was sought from the police and it was granted. Even to pray near the entrance of a hospital for a few hours permission from the police is needed.
The Italian papers are reporting on the cruelty of ISIS and graphic pictures and videos are shown but there is no photo of the abortions being done at the local hospital. Nor are there any photos of the children killed in the womb of the mother.
The leftist Partito Democratico has supported an invasion of immigrants here but has called for a ban on prayers near hospital entrances. Pro abortion activists, have attacked prayer vigils literally.The event is used to  blaspheme religion, in particular the Christian religion.
The leftists especially object to the images of aborted children while they claim children are not being aborted.
Pietro Guarini ,President of the No.194 Committee has called the Bologna ban on praying in front of hospitals as  'Stalinist'. He says the law 194 is responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands of Italian babies and it should go.
 9 - 14 Week Abortions (01)

London tabloid claims image of Virgin once appeared at Fr. Gobbi prayer cenacle

The mysterious picture with the

Virgin Mary 'appears' to crowd of thousands: Incredible photo of mystery being emerges

PARANORMAL researchers are investigating a mystery photo which has been said to show the Virgin Mary appearing before an amphitheatre full of worshippers.

The mysterious picture with the IG
The mysterious picture with the "Marian Apparition" and (inset) Father Gobbi
The remarkable image appears to show the shape of the Virgin Mary appearing towards the front of a packed crowd, as if being beamed in from a source up above.
It was taken at a mass held by a high-ranking Catholic priest who claimed to receive messages from the Madonna herself.
Yet the shape of Mary is a striking white in contrast to the yellowish light behind her.
The person who handed the image to an organisation that investigates UFOs and the paranormal has not been named, however they sent in what appears to be a photograph of the original printed picture.
The source claims the original snap was taken in 1994 during a huge Catholic mass called a cenacle given by Italian priest Father Stefano Gobbi at the Paolo Soleri Amphitheater, in Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA.
Father Gobbi, who has toured the world, was encouraged by the then Pope and was scrutinised by the church over claims of having mystical dealings with the Virgin Mary.
The source of the image gave no other information than to mysteriously say it had been given to them by a stranger - who also went unnamed unnamed.
They wrote to the investigators: "A stranger gave me this photo. My first thought was the Virgin."
The image was bizarrely sent to a team of UFO researchers, but has been logged for investigation due to the extraordinary nature of the photograph. enquires have established that Father Gobbi died aged 80 on June 29 2011, but spent more than three decades holding special mass gatherings centring around the Virgin Mary.
In his liftime he "traveled the world holding Cenacles of Prayer on every continent", according to an article on Father Gobbi by Colin Donovan, vice president for Theology, at the Global Catholic Network, on the organisations's website.

The mysterious image in fullIG
The mysterious image in full used Photoshop to lighten the image which reveals a bigger audience used Photoshop to lighten the image which reveals a bigger audience
Cenacles specifically centre around Mary and refers to the gathering of the apostles around the Blessed Mother, as she is known, in the Upper Room in which the Last Supper was celebrated and in which they awaited the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. **
The gatherings began in 1972 after Father Gobbi set up the Marian Movement of Priests in 1972 while visiting the Shrine of Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal.
The movement was formed to encourage Consecration, especially of priests, Immaculate Heart of Mary and whole-hearted fidelity to the Pope.
But it also sparked some controversy by Father Gobbi's claims "to receive interior locutions from the Blessed Virgin", according to Mr Donovan.
These "messages" said to be received by him in prayer were published in his spiritual diary To the Priests, Our Lady's Beloved Sons.
According to Mr Donovan there had been some scrutiny of Father Gobbi's "claims of mysticism" high up in the Catholic Church.
He added: "In the case of alleged mysticism there is always the possibility of mental illness, fraud, vivid imagination, or even the demonic.
"It is the task of a qualified spiritual director to discern, in the first instance, the authenticity of mysticism, basing himself on his knowledge of Catholic teaching, the personality, character and prayer life of the alleged mystic and his own experience in directing others.

The picture is said to have been taken at Paolo Soleri Amphitheater, which can seat thousandsYouTube
The picture is said to have been taken at Paolo Soleri Amphitheater, which can seat thousands
"From the beginning Father Gobbi has been under the care of a spiritual director, one who judged his locutions to be authentic and who determined which of the messages would be published.
"The final judgment of the alleged mysticism of the Father Gobbi rests, therefore, with the Church.
"In his favour, however, are the opinion of his spiritual director, his own zeal to promote Consecration to the Immaculate Heart and fidelity to the Magisterium, the great numbers of lay, religious and priestly vocations strengthened, and in some cases saved, through the Marian Movement of Priests, and the good will shown him by very many members of the hierarchy, including the Pope, who has received him and encouraged him in his work on several occasions."
There was no mention in the report of Father Gobbi ever talking of an actual Marian Apparition of the Virgin Mary appearing such as is said to have happened at Fatima or Lourdes in France, which are now pilgrimage destinations.
There is a record of Father Gobbi holding a Cenacle at the Santa Fe venue in 1994, but there is no independent confirmation the new mystery image was taken there. has sent a copy of the image to the Global Catholic Network and the Marian Movement of Priests for comment and awaits responses.
• If you know anything about the picture or attended the cenacle in question contact reporter Jon Austin via