They are correct Vatican Council II is a break with Tradition but it is Vatican Council II interpreted with the new theology.Omit the new theology and the perspective on Vatican Council II dramatically changes

XYZ:

Lionel, rather than giving us your personal interpretation of the salvation dogma,

Lionel:

Could you please clarify what was the teaching of the salvation dogma and what is my personal opinion which you refer to here? Is it different?

__________________________________

please produce just one quote from the Magisterium that says one must be a "formal member" (in your words, a "card carrying member") of the Catholic Church to be saved.

Lionel:

I am referring to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus defined by three Church Councils. I refer to Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441.

OUTSIDE THE CHURCH THERE IS NO SALVATION

• “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
• “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
• “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
• http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation
  
• __________________________________________

Again, produce the quotation (not your interpretation) from the Pope or council who teaches this doctrine.

Lionel:

Here is the quotation (above).

When I say every one needs to be a card carrying member of the Church or have his name on the Parish Baptism Register or that every one needs to be a formal member of the Church I am referring to how the saints and popes understood this teaching for centuries.It was based on the teachings of the three Church Councils cited above.

___________________________

Sorry, Lionel, that doesn't cut it. I asked you to provide me the teaching which actually says one must be a "formal member" of the Catholic Church to be saved. If you cannot provide me a quotation which uses the terminology "formal member," then you are providing me your interpretation (which differs from St. Thomas and many other Doctors), and not the teaching of the Church. Again, provide a quotation from a Pope or council that uses the terminology "formal member."
Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 says all need faith and baptism for salvation.The text of the dogma EENS which I cited does not say all need faith and baptism for salvation.However AG 7 is expressing the same message as Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.
Similarly when the phrase is used all need to be formal members of the Church for salvatiion, or the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water( CCC 1257) it is expressing the same message as the dogma EENS.
This is the same way of expressing the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.
Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274):

“There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church.” (Summa Theologiae)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

One needs to be a formal member of the Church for salvation, one needs to have 'faith and baptism' for salvation is the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas and St.Augustine and numerous other saints.This is not a personal view of mine.

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430):

“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem).

By formal member of the Church I mean to believe in the Nicene Creed, to believe in the Athanasius Creed to believe in the faith and moral teachngs of the Catholic Church. Here it is expressed by St. Robert Bellarmine.This is not a personal view of St. Bellarmine.

Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621):

“Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.” (De Sacramento Baptismi)

St.Thomas Aquinas, St.Augustine and St. Robert Bellarimine here are using the traditional theology of Feeneyism.'No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church'(St.Augustine).The baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are hypothetical and so they are not exceptions to the teaching on the Church, being like the only Ark of Noah that saves in the flood and every one needs to physically get into the Ark to be saved.

For you the dominant theology is Cushingism. So for you the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance refer to physically known cases in the present times.Otherwise how could there be exceptions, if a person does not exist. So every one does not need to find salvation in the Catholic Church for you, theologically. Every one does not need to be a card carrying member of the Church.Every one does not need to have his name on the Parish Baptism Register for salvation. There are exceptions for you.

You contradict AG 7 and LG 14 which says all need faith and baptism. While you re-interpret LG 16, LG 8 , UR 3 etc to refer to known cases, instead of invisible and hypothetical cases.

When I say every one needs to be a formal member of the Church I mean every one needs Catholic faith ,which includes the faith and moral teachings of the Church and the Sacraments.This must also include the baptism of water.

Due to the Cushingite theology which you use, you are saying that every one does not need to enter the Church and that St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine and St. Robert Bellarmine whom I have quoted here are wrong?

____________________________ 

Once again, you have failed to meet your burden. You have produced no quote which says one must be a "formal member" of the Church to be saved.
Lionel:
I have produced no quote that one must be a formal member of the Church to be saved since those two words are not there in the text of Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441.For me those two words explain the meaning of the text of the three Councils which defined EENS.I have the freedom of the English language and rational thinking to express and explain myself.
Similarly I believe 'all' need 'faith and baptism' for 'salvation'.This does not mean that I cannot say all need faith and baptism for salvation, since this phrase is not there in the Council of Florence 1441.All need faith and baptism is the phrase used in Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14).It is equivalent to  saying all need to be formal members of the Church (with faith and baptism).

__________________________________

And it is quite inconceivable that you would quote Sts. Augustine, Thomas and Bellarmine, since they all taught that a baptism of desire (an act of the will which supplied for the defect) joined one to the Church.

Lionel:

This is an important point you have mentioned.It is here where you go wrong. It was the liberal theologians in the U.S who reinterpreted all references to the baptism of desire as being explicit, objectively known and personally visible.Then they could postulated  that the baptism of desire is an exception to EENS.

You and I know that the baptism of desire is ALWAYS implicit, subjective, invisible for us, hypothetical and not concrete.

So when you refer to the baptism of desire being mentioned by some saint you are referring to an objective case,  while for me it is an invisible case. So for me it is not an exception to the rigorist and traditional interpretation of the dogma EENS, as expressed by Aquinas , Augustine and Bellarmine.For you it is.

This is the difference in our perspective.

__________________________

Let me explain to you where your theology is wrong. You say the following: When I say every one needs to be a formal member of the Church I mean every one needs Catholic faith ,which includes the faith and moral teachings of the Church and the Sacraments.This must also include the baptism of water.

Lionel:

Yes everyone needs physically visible and repeatable baptism of water in the Catholic Church. The baptism of water is given to adults with Catholic Faith.

_______________________________

You err by equating the Catholic faith (the interior virtue) with formal membership in the Church.

Lionel:

By Catholic faith I mean visible for us baptism of water.Seen with the naked eye.

By Catholic faith I mean the teachings of the Church which can be learnt and expressed out aloud.
I mean the visible Sacraments of Confession, Baptism etc.
This is all seen and known exteriorly.
So we have two theologies.
1.Feeneyism says every one needs to enter the Church with faith and baptism and there are no explicit, exterior, seen in the flesh exceptions.The entry into the Church has physically visible signs.There are no physically visible exceptions.
2.Cushingism says every one does not need to enter the Church since there are explicit, seen in the flesh exceptions to all needing to be physically visible members of the Church.This is irrational.Since in general there cannot be any physically exception for us human beings.
XYZ,you are using Cushingism

_______________________________

Baptism of water results in formal membership, but God can infuse the interior virtues into the soul through an act of man's will (God, of course, moving man to will it).

Lionel:

Baptism of water results in formal membership. Yes I agree. I also like your phrase. 'formal membership'.

____________________

If one dies with supernatural faith, hope and charity, he is saved.

Lionel:
O.K this is a reference to a hypothetical case. This is a theoretical statement. So it has nothing to do with all needing formal membership in the Church for salvation; all need to be Catholic with visible baptism and visible aspects of the faith.

____________________

Even Fr. Feeney recognized the same. He taught that God can indeed infuse the virtues without water baptism.

Lionel:
O.K. It is not an issue with me.It is a reference to a hypothetical case known only to God.
Hypothetical cases are only hypothetical.They cannot be concrete, seen in the flesh exceptions to EENS.

______________________

Fr. Feeney believed in baptism of desire. He erred by concluding that such a man, who was already in the state of grace, did not go to Heaven if he didn't get the water.

Lionel:

We can assume this was the teaching of Fr. Feeney but either way, for me (Lionel Andrades) the baptism of desire is a hypothetical case.So it was not an exception to the dogma EENS.For you it is not hypothetical. So this is why you mention it with reference to EENS and Fr. Leonard Feeney?

_________________

That position is heretical because Trent teaches that such a man in the state of grace is justified, an heir of God, a son of God, in whom dwells the Blessed Trinity.

Lionel:

O.K but this is a hypothetical case we are referring to.It is not someone personally known.So we cannot link it with EENS.It is not an exception to EENS as expressed by Aquinas, Augustine and Bellarmine. Speculatively, hypothetically, in faith, in principle you can discuss if it is heresy but in reality it has nothing to do with EENS.It cannot be an exception to all needing to physically enter the Church with physically visible for us baptism of water.

___________________________

Again, your problem is not that you have the freedom to express yourviews,

but that your views are not held by any saint, Pope or Doctor of the Church.

Lionel
I have quoted you the saints saying all need to be in the Catholic Church for salvation, all need faith and the baptism of water for salvation.This is not your view ,nor of the SSPX and the sedevacantists, since you all consider theoretical, hypothetical cases as exceptions to what the
saints say in the citations I sent you.

All of you (trads, sedes and libs) cannot accept this since in your mind, a person can in potential be saved outside the Church( correct hypothetically, speculatively) and that this case is an exception to all needing to faith and baptism for salvation( in other words it is not a hypothetical case for you all, since it is an exception.This is your mistake).

This is the difference in our perspective.

You have the advantage of being in harmony with the liberals and the pollitical Left while also claiming your are a traditionalist and not a sedevacantist.Some badge of honour.

_______________________________

None of them have ever equated salvation with formal membership in the Church, even though they have equated water baptism with formal membership in the Church.

Lionel:

JXYZ you still cannot see the contradiction in what you are saying here.
You are saying that the saints have equated water baptism with formal membership in the Church. Agreed.
The saints have equated water baptism with formal membership in the Church and water baptism is given to an adult with faith, Catholic Faith.So here you are affirming the dogma EENS.Fine so far.I agree with you.
However you are also saying that none of the saints equated salvation with the necessity of being a visible member of the Church, with faith and baptism, since there could be someone saved outside the Church.There could be someone known to God who can be saved outside the Church, the man in the forest in invincible ignorance or the saint with the desire for the baptism of water but who dies before receiving it or the saint who dies with the baptism of blood.Is this what you mean?
This entire paragraph is meaningless with reference to EENS.
'since there could be someone saved outside the Church.There could be someone known to God who can be saved outside the Church, the man in the forest in invincible ignorance or the saint with the desire for the baptism of water but who dies before receiving it or the saint who dies with the baptism of blood.'

This is the new theology, based on hypothetical cases being objective.

There cannot be ' someone saved outside the Church' who is visible and personally known to us. So it cannot be relevant to EENS.

There cannot be someone known to us human beings who is ' known to God who can be saved outside the Church'.Similarly there is no known case of the ' man in the forest in invincible ignorance' who has been saved and is in Heaven. A theoretical possibility for you is a known case then you take the next step in error and infer that it is an exception to all needing formal membership in the Church for salvation.
We can refer theoretically to 'the saint who dies with the baptism of blood' and without the baptism of water but we can never know any such person and so he cannot be relevant to EENS.
The new theology makes it relevant.
We can see the new theology in CCC 846 ( outside the Church there is no salvation) and CCC 1257 ( The Necessity of Baptism).It is there in Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14).

__________________________

 And there is a simple reason for that: formal membership in the Church is not necessary for salvation.

Lionel:
You contradict yourself.Earlier you have said that the baptism of water is necessary for all for salvation.You are unknowingly trying to accomodate the new theology which says hypothetical, unknown or theoretical cases are objective,known and visible exceptions to the teaching on all neeeding faith and baptism for salvation.
This was the error in Vatican Council II. The new theology runs through Vatican Council II.This a Cushingite error and it is not known to the traditionalists or the sedevacantists.
Instead these two groups have adopted the new theology in the interpretation of magisterial documents, since this was done by their leaders at the time of Vatican Council II.
XYZ, you are part of that traditionalist school of thought influenced by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the Hildebrands, Michael Davis and others.They are correct Vatican Council II is a break with Tradition but it is Vatican Council II interpreted with the new theology.Omit
the new theology and the perspective on Vatican Council II dramatically changes.

___________________________

 One can be joined to the Church by membership or desire to be saved.
It's that simple, Lionel, but you are too proud to see it.
Lionel:
Theoretically, hypothetically, in an unknown case, speculatively one can be joined to the Church.
Defacto, in reality, practically,objectively every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation( to avoid Hell).
Since you have said every one needs the baptism of water for salvation and that this is what the saints taught would you agree with me here?
Theoretically, hypothetically, in an unknown case, speculatively one can be joined to the Church.
Defacto, in reality, practically,objectively every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation( to avoid Hell).
Theoretically, hypothetically, in an unknown case, speculatively one can be joined to the Church with the baptism of desire or blood or in invincible ignorance with the baptism of water.
Defacto, in reality, practically,objectively every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation( to avoid Hell), with the baptism of water.

1.If you say theoretically, hypothetically, in an unknown case,speculatively one can be joined to the Church with the baptism of desire or blood or in invincible ignorance WITHOUT the baptism of water ,then you contradict yourself when you say the following.
2.Defacto, in reality, practically,objectively every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation( to avoid Hell), with the baptism of water.

___________________________

For more, see our book...

Lionel:

Your book does not make the distinction between the theology of Feeneyism and Cushingism and this is at the centre of the error of the sedevacantists.If they interpreted Vatican Council II with Feeneyism; if they made the theoretical-objective distinction, which I have made here ( above), they would not have to go into sedevacantism.
They would be in position to the demand that the CDF accept Vatican Council II( Feeneyite).

-Lionel Andrades