Not for me!
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Further, the rest of that section, ##1257-1261 explains more about what that means, including, "The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ." (#1258)
Lionel:
Once again this is a hypothetical subject. It is not someone we can personally know in March 2016. So it is irrelevant to EENS.
Why is it mentioned in the Catechism' This is another issue. For Cardinal Ratzinger and the New Theology, there are known visible exceptions to EENS, there is salvation outside the Church.
Not for me.I am not denying the hypothetical case, I any denying that this hypothetical case is objective and so relevant to EENS.
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Further, "For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament." (#1259)
Lionel:
Once again this is a reference to a hypothetical case. There is no one you and me me know who is saved as such. So I will not postulate a hypothetical case as being explicit in 2016.
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Hence, the act of Baptism is not limited to the Rite of Baptism insofar as God is concerned;
Lionel:
We do not know of any exceptions.If God knows of any exception it is not an exception for us human beings. We know that every one needs to formally convert into the Church, since this is the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
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however, insofar as man is concerned, the Rite of Baptism (baptism by water) is the only sure way to salvation. All other options still leave a question, hence the medieval notion of the Limbo of Infants.
More to the point, especially as regards the unevangelized, CCC #1260 specifically states the opposite of what you are arguing: "'Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.'
Lionel:
Yes the possibility exists as long as a person is alive.
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Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.' Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity." (emphasis mine)
Lionel:
Yes he can be saved one can hope optimistically. One can speculater. However this is not a case of someone personally known. So it is not a known exception to the dogma EENS. It is not relevant to EENs. We do not know the name and surname of someone who has been saved as such.There is not such case in 2016.
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The Catechism goes on to emphasize the need for baptism by water (and the Spirit) as the only sure way to salvation by applying this principle to unbaptized infants who die (which also applies to those who cannot be baptized, the children who die in the womb), saying that we commend them to God's mercy.
Lionel:
Yes we can commend them to God's mercy since the need for the baptism of water is the only sure way to salvation.
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If we can do that for the infant, even one born to a
Catholic family, why can we not do it for an adult who is just as uninformed about the necessity of salvation by baptism, regardless of their heathen faith?
Lionel :
Yes we can commend them to God's mercy, we can pray for them.
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However, a Muslim who has heard the Gospel and remained obstinate in his position that Jesus is not the Son of God surely condemns himself to damnation; of that there is no question.
Lionel:
Are you saying this based on LG 14 ? Since LG 14 is based on the reasoning in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. The Letter assumed that being saved in invincible ignorance referred to a known case of a person saved outside the Church, saved without the baptism of water.So LG 14 says every one who knows, who is not in invincible ignorance, needs to convert into the Church.
So with this error they rejected the traditional teaching which says every one with no exception needs to convert into the Church.
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The question of one who has never encountered the Gospel, never been given the chance to accept Jesus' baptism, remains unsure, since we know that God still desires his salvation and that God can (not does) act outside of the sacraments established for man to use of his own accord.
Lionel:
The norm for salvation is the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. The norma is not God acting outside the Sacraments.
If there is someone who has never encountered the Gospel and is saved, it could mean God had sent a preacher to him. This was how St. Thomas Aquinas explained it.
For St.Thomas Aquinas and Vatican Council II ( AG 7- all need faith and baptism) the norm is the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
-Lionel Andrades
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