Tuesday, December 22, 2015

Vox Cantoris contradicted by John Vennari and others : they can see Cushingite ghosts today!

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When Vox Cantoris says, 'there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. None will get to Heaven. All will go to Hell for all eternity. We cannot know if any one will be saved outside the Church.We cannot know who are saved outside the Church and who these people are. We cannot say if in fact any particular person will be saved ', he is referring to December 2015. Today. Today all need to convert into the Church. All need to be defacto members of the Catholic Church with 'faith and baptism'(AG 7, LG 14) to avoid Hell. All.

All. This is Feeneyite.Vatican Council II supports Fr. Leonard Feeney.
So is the baptism of desire and blood  and being saved in invincible ignorance relevant  to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ? If all need to formally convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell it means we do not and cannot know of any baptism of desire or blood case ? We cannot know of someone who will go to Heaven in invincible ignorance and without the baptism of water?
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This was the position of Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston. He said every one needs to convert into the Church for salvation and there are no exceptions. The baptism of desire was not relevant to the dogma for him.
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Yet Archbishop Augustine di Noia and so many Catholic religious leaders consider the baptism of desire etc as being an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. 1 In an interview with Edward Pentin for the National Catholic Register Archbishop Di Noia indicated that he knew an extra ordinary Protestant, an Anglican, who would be saved even though he was not in the Catholic Church.He said this in response to Pentin's question on extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Vox Cantoris says we cannot know any one today who will be saved outside the Church, who does not need to be a member of the Catholic Church. The CDF Archbishop has said he does know.
Even John Vennari wrote  an article recently 2 in which he supported the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and even quoted Cantate Dominio Council of Florence 1441. Yet there was no mention of Fr. Leonard Feeney in that report even though the priest from Boston also supported that same dogma.Since for John Vennari the baptism of desire etc refer to explicit cases and so are exceptions to Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence.This is the position of the SSPX bishops, Angelus Press etc.
So while Vox Cantors says there are no exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus John Vennari, John Salza and Louie Verrecchio cannot say the same thing. For them there are known exceptions to the dogma in 2015. They can see Cushingite ghosts!
-Lionel Andrades



1
Elementary My Dear Watson!
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/10/elementary-my-dear-watson_30.html

2

John Vennari is not aware of the heresy of Cushingism

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/12/john-vennari-is-not-aware-of-heresy-of.html






Vox Cantoris : There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. None will get to Heaven. All will go to Hell for all eternity.


http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/12/vox-cantoris-there-is-no-salvation.html



True or False Pope

Salza-Siscoe have not discussed these points on No Salvation Outside the Church so Vatican Council II is a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/12/salza-and-siscoe-have-not-touched-these.html


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Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone in a Letter to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel said Jews do not need to convert in the present times http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/12/cardinal-tarcisio-bertone-in-letter-to.html

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone in a Letter to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel said Jews do not need to convert in the present times

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It was Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone with the approval of Pope Benedict who said in indirectly and in a subtle way that Jews do not need to convert. In a letter to the Chief  Rabbinate of Israel ( see text below) he referred to an article by Cardinal Walter Kasper on the front page of the L'Osservatore Romano. That article clearly said Jews do not need to convert any more into the Church for salvation.

In this Letter of Cardinal Bertone no where is it said that the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation according to Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14). Instead, like Pope Benedict XVI and the Jewish Left, the theology of Cushingism is used to interpret Vatican Council II and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Letter of Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone on the Revised Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews.
Bertone, Tarcisio 
Città del Vaticano, 2008/05/14 


Mr Oded Wiener
Director-General of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel 
Beit Yahav
80 Yirmiyahu Street
P.O. Box 36016
Jerusalem


Dear Sir,

I write with reference to the Statement issued by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel in response to the publication of the Note of 4 February 2008, altering the Oremus et pro Iudaeis prayer in the 1962 edition of the Missale Romanum.

In this regard, I would point out that – by means of the "Communiqué of the Secretariat of State" which appeared in the daily edition of L'Osservatore Romano on 5 April 2008, and subsequently in the weekly language editions of the same publication – the Holy See has clearly emphasized the Catholic Church's firm commitment, especially in the wake of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, to promote and develop relations with the Jews through dialogue marked by profound respect, sincere esteem and cordial friendship. This commitment remains unchanged, especially in view of the spiritual links that exist between Jews and Christians.

As you have observed, particular prominence has also been given to a substantial and detailed article on the subject by Cardinal Walter Kasper, President of the Commission for Religious Relations with Judaism. This article appeared on the front page of L'Osservatore Romano on 10 April 2008, as a sign of the importance attributed to the text and the fact that what it says about the new version of the Prayer for the Jews in the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal is commonly held. Among other things, the Cardinal emphasized that a sincere dialogue between Jews and Christians is possible, on the one hand, on the basis of our common faith in the one God, Creator of heaven and earth, and in the promises made to Abraham, but on the other hand, through respectfully acknowledging the fundamental difference over faith in Jesus as Christ and Redeemer of all mankind. As Cardinal Kasper clearly explains, the new Oremus et pro Iudaeis is not intended to promote proselytism towards the Jews and it opens up an eschatological perspective. Christians, however, cannot but bear witness to their faith, in full and total respect for the freedom of others, and this leads them also to pray that all will come to recognize Christ.

Likewise, on his recent visit to the United States of America, the Holy Father gave a number of indications of his sentiments towards the Jews. Indeed, after meeting the representatives of various religions, the Pope particularly wanted to receive a group of Jewish religious leaders in order to hand over to them a special Message on the occasion of the great feast of Pesah, devoted to celebrating the great marvels that Almighty God has worked for his people.

In New York, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI visited a synagogue in order to meet personally a Jewish community whose Rabbi was a survivor from the Nazi extermination camps. He wanted to manifest his sympathy, affection and closeness to the Jewish people, and to demonstrate, through a tangible and special gesture, the Holy See's commitment to respectful and loving dialogue, which leads to ever deeper relations of friendship and understanding.

In the hope that this letter may serve to dispel any remaining doubt on the part of the Chief Rabbinate over the Catholic Church's stance towards the Jewish people and over the intentions behind the alteration of the Oremus et pro Iudaeis of the 1962 Missale Romanum, I remain

Yours sincerely,
Tarcisio Card. Bertone

Secretary of State 1


1
POPE SAYS REVISED GOOD FRIDAY PRAYER IS NOT FOR THE CONVERSION OF THE JEWS ? EARTHQUAKE SHIFT IN CATHOLIC TEACHING ? 
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2010/12/pope-says-revised-good-friday-prayer-is.html
-Lionel Andrades


CARDINAL BERTONE SAID JEWS DO NOT HAVE TO CONVERT-Father Alberto Pacini http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2009/10/cardinal-bertone-said-jews-do-not-have.html

CARDINAL BERTONE SAID JEWS DO NOT HAVE TO CONVERT, VATICAN COUNCIL II SAYS MILLIONS DO TO AVOID HELL
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2010/01/cardinal-bertone-said-jews-do-not-have.html

All the Jews in Sydney and Boston are oriented to Hell according to Vatican Council II http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2013/03/all-jews-in-sydney-and-boston-are.html



Why is there not an ‘ecclesial rupture’ over Cardinal Kurt Koch’s statement? Nostra Aetate 4 says Catholics are the new Chosen People of God.

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/06/why-is-there-not-ecclesial-rupture-over.html


Vatican Council II states all Jews and other non Catholics need to convert for salvation and so the comments were pulled down. The comments were contrary to the political propaganda at the University by the rabbi http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/05/vatican-council-ii-states-all-jews-and.html

Nostra Aetate does not contradict Ad Gentes 7

CATHOLICS COULD CONDUCT AN EDUCATION CAMPAIGN OUTSIDE GERMAN EMBASSIES SAYING : ‘Don’t tell us how to interpret Vatican Council II.Neither tells us our faith and what we should believe in !’
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/05/catholics-could-conduct-education.html

Tuesday, May 15, 2012
GERMANY EXPRESSES CONCERN ABOUT THE INTERPRETATION OF VATICAN COUNCIL II ACCORDING TO TRADITION http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/05/germany-expresses-concern-about.html#links


DID THE POPE REALLY DENY THE FAITH ON THE NEED FOR JEWS TO CONVERT ? http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/did-pope-really-deny-faith-on-need-for.html




ANIVERSARY OF THE DENIAL OF THE FAITH BY THE MAGISTERIUM ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/aniversary-of-denial-of-faith-by.html

NO CANON LAW OBLIGES THE SSPX TO ACCEPT THE JEWISH LEFT VERSION OF VATICAN COUNCIL II
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2012/04/no-canon-law-obliges-sspx-to-accept.html

Vox Cantoris : There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. None will get to Heaven. All will go to Hell for all eternity.



There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. No Protestants. No Jews. No Muslims, No Hindus. No Buddhists. No Mormans. No Jehovah's Witnesses. No animists, no atheists, no pagans. None will get to Heaven. All will go to Hell for all eternity
Lionel: 
Agreed.
Now, can these Protestants, Jews and Muslims and others be saved by God? That is up to Him. God is not bound by His Sacraments, we are.
Lionel:
 God is bound to the Sacraments according to the dogmatic teaching. The non Catholics are all on the way to Hell. They need the Sacraments for salvation.
'God is not bound to the Sacraments' (CCC 1257) comes from Cushingism, it comes from the error in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
The Letter assumed that there is salvation outside the Church and God was not bound to the Sacraments. Since it was assumed that there were cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance and without the baptism of water.This was the reasoning at Boston in the 1949 Fr. Leonard Feeney case.
But where are these cases of someone saved without the baptism of water ? Who has seen them? Who can see them on earth? Who saw them in 1949?
How could it be said that God is not limited to the Sacraments when we do not know the name of someone in the present times, saved outside the Church. How can we postulate there is salvation outside the Church, when there cannot be any known case? 
So when Cardinal Ratzinger says in the Catechism(1257) that 'God is not limited to the Sacraments' how can this speculation be related to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or even to CCC 1257 also saying 'the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water'. In other words Cardinal Ratzinger was saying all need the baptism of water for salvation but some do not (CCC 1257)?!
This was the original error in the 1949 Letter to the Archbishop of Boston. The first part of the Letter says all need to enter the Church for salvation and the second part says the baptism of desire etc are exceptions to all needing to enter the Church.This is contradictory. It is also irrational since there are no known cases of someone saved in Heaven without the baptism of water.
No one in the Church can say that St.Emerentiana, St. Victor or St. XYZ is Heaven without the baptism of water, before or after they died.The saints tell us some people have returned to earth only to be baptised with water. God did not send them to Hell but gave them a chance for some reason.So there are no exceptions to all needing the baptism of water to be Heaven.In Heaven there are only Catholics baptised who are baptised with water.
So if 'God is not limited to the Sacraments' theoretically, in reality, defacto it has nothing to do with the dogma and should not have been mentioned in the first place.
When Cardinal Ratzinger placed that line ( God is not limited to the Sacraments) in the Catechism  it is misleading. It supports the heresy of Cushingism.
Similarly the baptism of desire and blood and being saved in invincible ignorance, allegedly without the baptism of water, should not have been mentioned in Vatican Council II (LG 14, AG 7 etc). Since these cases do not exist in our reality and they have no bearing on the dogma and the old ecclesiology on salvation.

 If one of these is saved, it is not because of their false religion, it is in spite of it and because of the grace that flows from the Catholic Church and Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. We cannot know who these are, who are saved or if in fact they will be.
Lionel:
We cannot know who these people are , who are saved or if in fact they will be saved says Vox Cantoris.
Yes! We cannot know ! Agreed!
We also cannot know when God is not limited to the Sacraments. We cannot meet any one who will be saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
So every one in 2015-2016 needs to enter the Church to avoid the fires of Hell.As Vox Cantoris says 'There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. No Protestants. No Jews. No Muslims, No Hindus. No Buddhists. No Mormans. No Jehovah's Witnesses. No animists, no atheists, no pagans. None will get to Heaven. All will go to Hell for all eternity'

 We can only give them to God in his Divine Mercy and the rest is up to Him.
Lionel: 
Yes we can pray for all and let people know  that the Catholic Church teaches in Vatican Council II that all people are on the way to Hell without 'faith and baptism'( AG 7, LG 14) and they need to convert formally into the Church (with faith and baptism).
Pope Francis and Cardinal Muller cannot contradict this teaching in Vatican Council II.Vatican Council II supports the dogmatic teaching on exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church.
As Vox Cantoris says, 'there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. None will get to Heaven. All will go to Hell for all eternity. We cannot know if any one will be saved outside the Church.We cannot know who are saved outside the Church and who these people are. We cannot say if in fact any particular person will be saved. 
-Lionel Andrades
http://voxcantor.blogspot.it/2015/12/these-men-will-dialogue-straight-into.html

Salza-Siscoe have not discussed these points on No Salvation Outside the Church so Vatican Council II is a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

True or False PopeSalza/Siscoe: Those who have endorsed the book have acknowledged that there is no other book quite like it, given the sheer breadth and depth of the material covered. For example, one seminary professor and rector has told us that the book contains the most thorough treatment of the doctrine, No Salvation Outside the Church, that he has seen in one single resource. INTERVIEW: Salza & Siscoe unmask Sedevacantism https://akacatholic.com/interview-salza-siscoe-unmask-sedevacantism/#comments

Lionel:
the book contains the most thorough treatment of the doctrine, No Salvation Outside the Church
John Salza, the SSPX and the sedevacantists all use an irrational premise and inference to interpret the dogma extra ecclesiam nullla salus.
So for them it would be difficult to understand what I write,since:
1) They believe the magisterium of Pope Pius XII is infallible and cannot make a mistake on doctrine
2) They assume those who are saved with the baptism of desire etc refer to explicit cases, visible in the present times.
3) They assume we humans can see these explicit cases in Heaven and this was possible in 1949 Boston and Vatican Council II 1965.
So all discussion on outside the Church there is no salvation for them must include these three premises.
Then they are comfortable in this reasoning , since this is the reasoning of the popes since Pius XII and is included in  Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
All of them are also linked in some way to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Michael Davis and the other traditionalists of that time, who accepted these three points.
This is also the reasoning of the Jewish Left and so it is politically correct and there are no complications in life,no anti-Semiticsm threats and intimidation.
On the other hand if they did not hold their present position on these three points Salza and Siscoe and would be writing another book on sedevacantism.
They then would only have to accept that if any one says we can see people in Heaven in the present times saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church, it would be irrational. It would be a lie. Since physically it is not possible, in general.
I repeat : if any would say that they can meet or talk to people in Heaven in the present times (December 2015)  who are saved without formal membership in the Catholic Church, it would be the stuff of fantasy. This is not possible for any pope, cardinal, bishop, priest...
1) So when the magisterium of Pope Pius XII in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 infers that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, it is a lie. There cannot be an explicit case of the baptism of desire for us. So how can there be an exception ?
If any Church Council or document would imply there is such a case it would be irrational.
2.) So it has to be accepted that those who are saved with the baptism of desire etc refer to hypothetical cases ( which could be followed with the baptism of water since this is the dogmatic teaching). They are invisible for us and so they are not relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( with or without the baptism of water).
3) So there was no one in 1949 Boston or 1965 Vatican Council II who could physically see any case of salvation outside the Church.There is still no salvation outside the Church .
Once this is understood and accepted we have the SSPX and the sedevacantists saying there can be no exceptions in Vatican Council II to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
So then what is the basis of the sedevacantists sedevacantism if Vatican Council II supports the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
Why should the SSPX object to canonical status in the Church, when Vatican Council II which supports extra ecclesiam nulla salus is traditional on other religions and the old ecumenism ?
I am sure Salza and Siscoe have not touched these points in their discussion of No Salvation Outside the Church and Vatican Council II.For them Vatican Council II is a break with the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong and Cardinal Cushing was correct, for them.
Since, they want to believe:-
I) The magisterium of Pope Pius XII is infallible and cannot make a mistake on doctrine 2) They assume those who are saved with the baptism of desire etc refer to explicit cases, visible in the present times. 3) They assume we humans can see these explicit cases in Heaven and this was possible in 1949 Boston and Vatican Council II 1965.
-Lionel Andrades





There being exceptions is the irrational reasoning used to interpret Vatican Council II by John Vennari, Chris Ferrara, John Salza http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/02/there-being-exceptions-is-irrational.html and Louie Verrecchio

John Vennari is not aware of the heresy of Cushingism
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/12/john-vennari-is-not-aware-of-heresy-of.html

MOST HOLY FAMILY MONASTERY SEDEVACANTISTS CONSIDER BAPTISM OF DESIRE DE FACTO AND KNOWABLE IN THE PRESENT TIME

SEDEVACANTISTS SLIP ON BOD UNDERSTANDING AND CRITICIZE POPE JOHN PAUL II

MHFM SLIPS ON BOD DEFINITION AND CRITICIZES SSPX