Thursday, June 25, 2015

Pope Francis like the sedevantists uses Marchetti's irrational premise and inference. He accepts the Council with this error


Introibo Ad Altare Dei (IAAD)
Let's get one thing straight: the goal of Vatican II is, and always has been, the creation of an ecumenical One World "Church" where everything is accepted but the Truth. 
Lionel:
The truth is not accepted also by the sedevacantists. They use Marchetti's reasoning. Then they reject Vatican Council which agrees with EENS according to St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St.Maximillian Kolbe etc.
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They will have a "Gay mass" with practicing sodomites in one place and they'll give you a "Latin Motu Mass" condemning unnatural practices in another. "Sister Mary Marxist" will tell you everyone goes to Heaven regardless of belief, and "Brother Feeney" will tell you almost no one gets there unless the person is enrolled on a parish register, and probably not even then.
Lionel:
'No no one gets there unless the person is enrolled on a parish register' yes, this was the traditional teaching of the Church. Your view is based on the EWTN model in the online report Tragic Errors of Fr.Leonard Feeney by Fr.William Most. 
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 You can have any view you wish and do anything you like, as long as you submit to Francis and the ecumenical heresies of Vatican II. 
Lionel:
Pope Francis like the sedevantists uses Marchetti's irrational premise and inference. He accepts the Council with this error . The sedevantists reject the Council but also with the same error.
The sedevantists accept Pope Pius XII who made the same irrational error as the popes who followed him.They are not aware of the error so they condemn the popes after Pius XII.
-Lionel Andrades

http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.it/

The EWTN report Tragic Errors of Fr.Leonard Feeney by Fr.William Most is based on irrational Cushingism


Introibo Ad Altare Dei :IAAD
 Wow. So the dogma of EENS has two "theologies":
Lionel:
There is one traditional theology.
It is when it is assumed that there are known exceptions to the dogma, that a new theology emerges.
The traditional theology is Feeneyism. The new one is Cushingism or Marchettiism.
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 that of Feeney and that of "Cushingism" --so named by the blog's author after Richard Cardinal Cushing of Boston who condemned Feeney and upheld BOD and BOB.
Lionel:
Yes! He upheld BOB and BOD as exceptions to the dogma. He assumed they were relevant to the dogma. 
Before 1949 they were also accepted. But they were not considered relevant to the dogma. They were not considered explicit and known to us human beings.Marchetti and Cushingism made the irrational connection.
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 The idea of BOD and BOB go way back to times Apostolic, not to the 1940s.
Lionel:
Yes!
And they were not linked to the dogma.
They were not assumed to be visible in the flesh for us human beings.This change was made in 1949.
The text of the thrice defined dogma does  not mention them.Obviously, since we do not know any case of BOB and BOD in the present times for them to be exceptions to the dogma.
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 The other errors are manifest. If the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium teaches "Cushingism" then it must be accepted.
Lionel:
Before 1949 the magisterium did not teach Cushingism. The contemporary magisterium does.
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 The Church rejects the idea that only de fide pronouncements must be believed. Feeneyism is the heresy. 
Lionel:
Before 1949 the Church has always taught that every one needs to formally enter the Church for salvation, every one needs to be a defacto member of the Catholic Church.
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BOD and BOB (or "Cushingism" according to EAM--as if the Cardinal invented the Catholic teaching!) does NOT teach "all need to enter the Church but those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire do not need to enter the Church."
Lionel:
This would be fine with me as long as you do not infer that these cases are known to us in the present times and so they are exceptions to the dogma.
Every one needs to be a formal member of the Church today for salvation and if there are some hypothetical, unknown cases somewhere out there, they are not exceptions or to relevant to the dogma.
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 As explained above, those who receive BOD are infused with both Faith and Sanctifying Grace, this precludes ignorance at that point and they are members of the Church!
Lionel:
Fine ! As long as we both agree that these are hypothetical cases and so are not defacto exceptions to the dogma this day, this month and this year.
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 There are no people in Heaven who were "exceptions" (i.e. non-Catholic) on Earth. He either completely misrepresents or doesn't understand the principles involved.
Lionel:
Every one in Heaven is only a Catholic!
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It may strike many as strange, that a sect which proclaims universal (or near universal) salvation outside itself, would be home to those who hold the heretical views of Fr. Feeney where almost no one gets to Heaven. 
Lionel:
Vatican Council II says all need faith and baptism. This is traditional.
We also know that most people die without faith and baptism and so are oriented to Hell.
This is a traditional teaching.It is also Feeneyism within Vatican Council II.
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The Vatican II sect will tolerate anything except the Truth! The false popes and their teachings are a bundle of contradictions. Many who follow Francis and Vatican II refer to the Feeneyite heresy as "the restrictive interpretation" as opposed to the "liberal interpretation" (universal salvation where everyone becomes an "anonymous Christian" as per the heretic Fr. Karl Rahner).
Lionel:
If your referring to the EWTN report Tragic Errors of Fr.Leonard Feeney by Fr.William Most, note, that he is using Marchettiism. It is based on irrational Cushingism. It contradicts IAAD's position on Twitter.
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 Notice the CORRECT interpretation is jettisoned. One of the biggest apologists for the Vatican II sect, Pete Vere, employed by them as a "canon lawyer,"  has defended the Feeneyite position as acceptable to be held by "Catholics"(!)
Lionel:
Peter Vere also uses Cushingism.
-Lionel Andrades

http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.it/

They would be saved with Catholic Faith when they are saved. Since in Heaven there are only Catholics. This is not contested in the UR 3 text.


Introibo  Ad Altare Dei (IAAD)
IV) Vatican II Teaches Salvation Outside The Church
Lionel:
It does not for me.
The new and heretical ecclesiology of Vatican II found in Lumen Gentium teaches that the Church of Christ "subsists in" (not "is") the Roman Catholic Church.
Lionel:
Pope Benedict XVI clarified this.So it is IAAD' personal view here.
For me Ad Gentes 7 is clear. It supports EENS.
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 This means there is an entity known as theChurch of Christ which is distinct from the Roman Catholic Church and it subsists in its fullness in the Catholic Church, but it subsists in other sects according to how many "elements" they possess. To have all the elements is best, but to have just some is equally good andleads to salvation.
Lionel:
This is your opinion based on your premise. It is not mine.
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The Vatican II document Unitatis Redintegratio states in paragraph #3:
"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation.
Lionel:
It infers that a person can be saved in a non Catholic church or community. A person could be saved among the Protestants or Orthodox Christians.
Agreed!
They would be saved with Catholic Faith when they are saved. Since in Heaven there are only Catholics. This is not contested in the UR 3 text.
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 For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church." (Emphasis mine)
Lionel:
Fine. This is a reference to hypothetical cases which would only be known to God.Of course when they are in Heaven they would be Catholics having received the Sacraments and knowing the Catholic Faith and believing in it.
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BOD and BOB means that individuals are brought into the Church and die as Catholics.
Lionel:
Correct. Perfect.
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 It does not deny the dogma of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" (EENS) or "Outside The Church There Is No Salvation."
Lionel:
Precisely. Agreed!
________________
-Lionel Andrades

http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.it/

Marchettiism is a major heresy in the Catholic Church in the present times

 Introibo Ad Altare Dei (IAAD)
The blog's owner, one Lionel Andrades, is representative of a peculiar ideological opinion: he adheres to the Vatican II sect 
Lionel:
 Yes to the mainline Catholic Church which accepts Pope Francis.

and claims that Feeneyism (denial of Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood)
Lionel:
According to the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney they do not deny the baptism of desire or blood. They simply say that it will be followed with the baptism of water in the Catholic Church in a manner known only to God.

As for me, Lionel Andrades, I simply say that we do not know any case of BOD or I.I in the present times and so they are not exceptions to the dogma. Introibo Ad Altare Dei (IAAD) agrees with me on this point on Twitter.He has said BOB and BOD are not exceptions to EENS.

 and the documents of Vatican II are compatible.

Lionel:
Feeneyism ( there are no known exceptions to the dogma, so there are no exceptions for us human beings ) is compatible with Vatican Council II ( when it is not assumed that there are known exceptions to the dogma).Sedevacantists accept VC2 assuming there are known exceptions to EENs mentioned in VC 2.Then VC2 becomes incompatible.

 Fr. Feeney was a Jesuit from Boston excommunicated by Pope Pius XII for his denial of Baptism of Desire (BOD) and Baptism of Blood (BOB),

Lionel:
He denied they were exceptions to the dogma .Even IAAD agrees with this view on Twitter.

 hence the heresy's name.
Lionel:
How can affirming the traditional teaching of the Church be a heresy.
It was Cardinals Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani and Richard Cushing who were putting forward a new theory. They were in heresy.
Marchettiism is a major heresy in the Catholic Church in the present times.

  Actually, there are most probably more Feenyites in the Vatican II sect than there are sedevacantists, which seems counter-intuitive.
Lionel:
St.Thomas Aquinas was a Feeneyite. So were the popes and saints.Feeneyism is the orthodox teaching of the Catholic Church.Sedevacantists make Marchetti's mistake.
-Lionel Andrades

http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.it/

For you UR 3 and LG 8 are exceptions to the dogma.Why? Who do you know today who is saved as mentioned in UR 3,LG 8?

  1. BOD and BOB are not exceptions to EENS. You die as a Catholic as an exception to Baptism not Church membership.

  1. Lionel says : LG 16 is an exception to EENS for the SSPX, CMRI, MHFM,MICM. Also for you ?

  2. @AndradesLionel The exceptions lie in UR #3 as well as LG # 8. LG 8 tells us there is something called the Church of Christ which is
    Response to Introibo Ad Altare:

  3. Lionel says : The dogma says every one needs to be a formal member of the Catholic Church for salvation, every needs to enter the Church.
  4. @IAltare The exceptions lie in UR #3 as well as LG # 8... Lionel says : Are you saying that these are known cases today? You know some such case.

@IAltare Third: I don't need to "know" someone... Lionel says :How can being saved with elements of sanctification and truth (LG 8) be relevant to EENS?

  1. @IAltare Third: I don't need to "know" someone to be ... Lionel says: When there are no known cases for us how can LG 8 and UR 3 be exceptions to EENS?

  2. @IAltare Third: I don't need to "know" someone to be saved as..
    Lionel says: So when there are no known cases on earth how there be exceptions to EENS?

  3. @IAltare Third: I don't need to "know" someone to be saved as.. Lionel says :So when there are no known cases for us, how can they be exceptions to EENS?

  4. @IAltare Third: I don't need to "know" someone to be saved as in LG 8...
    Lionel says : We humans cannot know.Such cases would only be known to God.Not us.

  5. @IAltare Third: I don't need to "know" someone to be saved as in LG 8... Lionel says : Neither does Cardinal Napier know any such case today.

  6. @AndradesLionel Third: I don't need to "know" someone to be saved as in LG 8...
    Lionel:You don't know. Neither do I.
  7. -Lionel Andrades