Saturday, March 14, 2015

After 1949 the error came in a big way into the Catholic Church

After 1949 Church documents in a big and clear way refer to cases in  Heaven being  physically known to us on earth. These cases in Heaven not visible to us, become evidence of salvation outside the Church i.e non Catholics saved without the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.Fantasy.These persons in Heaven become exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire ( allegedly followed by the baptism of water) refer to persons who did not need to formally convert into the Church.They are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus in 2015.Since allegedly we personally know these exceptions. We an see them and meet them on earth. This is the hypothesis. It is a false premise.
This was the visible-dead exception theory of Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani when he issued the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.It was accepted by the Magisterium. Since 1949 even apologists like Fr.John Hardon did not object.
Vatican Council II mentions those who are saved in invincible ignorance and with implicit desire in LG 14 and AG 7. However they do not refer to known,visible and nameable  cases in 2015. So we should not consider them as exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
When Vatican Council II refers to those who know and do not enter being damned, we should recall that those who know or do not know, are known only to God. So again this is not a reference to an exception to EENS. The mistake is often made here.An  exception would have to be visible, known and nameable  to be an exception to the dogma.
When Dominus Iesus and Redemptoris Missio imply that there is salvation outside the e Church, we have to recall that there is no such case known or capable of being known to us.
EENS suggests that we assume that there are people saved in their religion with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water in a way known only to God.In Heaven there are only Catholics. This we know from the dogma.In Heaven they are  there without mortal sins on their soul.They  are there with 'faith and baptism(AG 7).
When the Catechism of the Catholic Church says all who are saved are saved though Jesus and the Church we must note that  this is not an exception to the strict interpretation of the dogma. Due to Cardinal Marchetti's mistake it is being implied there is salvation outside the Church,when the Catechism(1257) says God is not limited to the Sacraments.
It is  unfortunate that popes, cardinal and bishops have not had the ability to affirm in public, the strict interpretation of the dogma. Instead they have  allowed all this confusion to enter magisterial documents since 1949. The confusion was there earlier.How when Cardinal Marchetti criticised Fr.Leonard  Feeney the error became concrete. For some 19 plus years they did not lift the excommunication. Not even during Vatican Council II.When they did lift the excommunication he was not asked to recant and he had made it clear that he had not recanted.
Until today, at Holy Mass and in Catholic media and publications, Jesus is proclaimed without the necessity of formal entry into the Church with faith and baptism, for salvation.
The traditional aspects  of Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's  Catechism of the Catholic Church can be accepted but the passages which suggest that persons now dead for us and who are in Heaven are nameable, known and visible on earth,must be  rejected or re interpreted .These documents are clearly saying that there is known salvation outside the Church.
The error is usually  implied  in the references to being saved in invincible ignoroance and the baptism of desire being exceptions to the necessity of all converting into the church in the present times.They are not exceptions.-Lionel Andrades

Confusion in the Catechism of Pope Pius X

 But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
Lionel:
Yes he will be saved  if God sends a preacher to him as St.Thomas Aquinas taught , who will have him instructed and baptised with water.
Anyway this is a hypothetical case. It can only be a speculative case for us human beings. Since only God can know who is saved as such.
So this speculative case has nothing to do with the traditional interpretation of the dogma.
Yet this speculative case is presented as an exception to the dogma, it is inferred to be an exception to the dogma in the Catechism of Pope Pius X.

In the Catechism of Pope Pius X , 27 Q is not contradicted by 29 Q unless you assume that those who have received implicit desire (baptism of desire) are explicit for us.29Q really has nothing to do with 27Q and it should not have been placed together.Or it should have been clarified that these persons are not known to us.







27 Q. Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?
A. No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.-Catechism of Pope Pius X 1905,Rome.
29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation. -Catechism of Pope Pius X, Rome 1905
I mentioned in the previous blog post  it  is only in the present times that there can be an exception. 1
For example there would have to be a case in 2015 as such for it to be an exception. If someone died without the baptism of water and the Church declares that person a saint, centuries back, then that person cannot be an exception to the dogma today in 2015.
A possibility which happened in the past cannot be an exception to the dogma today.
Assuming there are such persons how would we know who they are and how would they be exceptions to the strict interpretation of the dogma on salvation today ? They cannot be exceptions today. This would be thinking irrationally.

Traditionalits recommend the Catechism of Pope Pius X and they assume that those saved in with implicit desire or in  invincible ignorance are always saved without the baptism of water and they are visible, nameable, and personally known in the present times (2015).So it is concluded that they are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma. This is irrational.
This irrationality is common in the SSPX. They criticize Feeneyism since they assume there are known exceptions in the present times to the strict interpretation of the dogma on  salvation.They have been contradicted by the SSPX General Chapter Statement 2012 which stated that the SSPX affirms extra ecclesiam nulla salus without exceptions.
-Lionel Andrades

1.
March 14, 2015
Pope Pius IX contributed to the confusion on extra ecclesiam nulla salus

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/03/pope-pius-ix-contributed-to-confusion.html

 

Pope Pius IX contributed to the confusion on extra ecclesiam nulla salus

Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Allocution Singulari quadam, December 9, 1854 '...on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God.'
Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore
Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control." 1
Why does Pope Pius IX have to mention being saved in invincible ignorance with reference to extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
He first said all needed to enter the Church for salvation. They need to formally enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. He was traditional here.Then why does he have to mention those who are saved in invincible ignorance when we do not know, and cannot know any such case, as an exception?
 
Did Pope Pius IX who issued the Syllabus of Errors make the same mistake as theologians who assume that those saved in invincible ignorance are visible, nameable and personally known in the present times? Did he assume that those who are saved in invincible ignorance are also saved without the baptism of water and they are defacto, objective, explicit  exceptions to the dogma and the Syllabus of Errors ? How can hypothetical cases be explicit exceptions?. So why did he have to mention this ?
There is no connection between those who are saved in invincible ignorance and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known over the centuries.
 
Then in 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII Fr.Leonard Feeney was criticised in the Letter of the Holy Office for not acknowledging that being saved in invincible ignorance referred to visible, nameable and personally known cases now in Heaven who were saved without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water and so were exceptions to his strict interpretation of the dogma.
Pius IX assumes that those saved in invincible ignorance are relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and infers that these cases can be known to us. Then Pope Pius XII also assumes that these cases in Heaven are explicit for us and so the traditional interpretation of the dogma is affirmed and rejected at the same time.
 This objective error is then incorporated into Vatican Council II. The Council could infer ( if one is not careful to know that there is a choice) that those who are in invincible ignorance are known to us to be exceptions to the strict interpretation of the dogma.(No they are not known to us and cannot be exceptions to the dogma. They can only be possibilities saved with the baptism of water in a manner known only to God.)
Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."
 Who knowing?
Who are these people?
Visible , nameable and personally known ?
 

Lumen Gentium 16 :'Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.
In other words this is a possibility and it is also an exception to the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
 Who are these people who are in Heaven or going to be in Heaven this year without faith and baptism? They would have to be concrete to be exceptions to the dogma in the present times.It is only in the present times that there can be an exception.
For example there would have to be a case in 2015 as such for it to be an exception. If someone died without the baptism of water and the Church declares that person a saint, centuries back, then that person cannot be an exception to the dogma today in 2015.
A possibility which happened in the past cannot be an exception to the dogma today.
Assuming there are such persons how would we know who they are and how would they be exceptions to the strict interpretation of the dogma on salvation today ? They cannot be exceptions today. This would be thinking irrationally.
 Pope Pius IX (1846–1878) contributed to the confusion, irrationality and factual error now considered magisterial.It is  assumed in 2015 that there is salvation outside the Church i.e there are people in Heaven who can be saved and who were saved without faith and baptism and who are defacto exceptions in the present times.So every one it is inferred does not defacto have to be a formal member of the Church for salvation.
This error was made magisterial and public in the Letter of the Holy Office when Fr.Leonard Feeney was criticised for not being able to say that there were persons in Heaven saved without the faith and baptism and that they were known exceptions in 1949, to his strict interpretation of the dogma.Convoluted thinking! Irrational! How can we know of exceptions who are now in Heaven? How can they be exceptions on earth in the present times?
How do we change irrational thinking?
Pope John Paul II's Catechism of the Catholic Church, Redemptoris Missio, Dominus Iesus etc have accepted this irrational thinking.
-Lionel Andrades
1.
Pope Pius IX (1846–1878), Allocution Singulari quadam, December 9, 1854: "Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and "judgements of God" which are "a great abyss" (Ps. 35.7) and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic Duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive form the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice.
"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains 'we shall see God as He is' (1 John 3.2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.
"But, just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, 'for the hand of the
Lord is not shortened' (Isa. 9.1) and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting to those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light."[