Monday, March 2, 2015

The Council of Trent, Mystici Corporis no where says that these cases are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus : Rome made a mistake in 1949

Well I have your answer now in one word and will expand on that one word for that word is SYLLABUS.

- Father(FSSP priest) said that we need a Syllabus of Errors on Vatican Council II
- Throughout the centuries the Syllabus has been used to clarify, correct, modify and most importantly to condemn errors in words and/or thinking that were prevalent during that time in history.
-There are no known exceptions before or after 1949 nor will there  ever be exceptions. The Letter of the Holy Office of 1949 does not say that there are known exceptions. Now what they were THINKING is quite a different story.
Lionel:
The Letter implied it.
 
Finally, it is in no wise to be tolerated that certain Catholics shall claim for themselves the right to publish a periodical, for the purpose of spreading theological doctrines, without the permission of competent Church authority, called the "" which is prescribed by the sacred canons.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949
-Lionel:
Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center was saying there are no exceptions.The new theological doctrine in 1949 said there are exceptions.So the St.Benedict Center and Fr.Leonard Feeney were criticized.
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Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after "Rome has spoken" they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith.- Letter of the Holy Office 1949
Lionel:
So Rome has spoken. There are exceptions. Those who are in invincible ignorance or die with an unconscious desire for the baptism of water are exceptions to all needing the baptism of water and Catholic Faith for salvation. Rome had spoken in 1949.
So the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance were also mentioned in Vatican Council II.
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From these declarations which pertain to doctrine.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949
Lionel:
So the doctrine from Rome in 1949 was saying that there were exceptions and the St.Benedict Center was still holding to the traditional theology which said there are no exceptions.
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From the Housetops Magazine
From what has been said it is evident that those things which are proposed in the periodical , fascicle 3, as the genuine teaching of the Catholic Church are far from being such and are very harmful both to those within the Church and those without.
Lionel:
It is harmful to say there are no exceptions! The popes and saints were earlier teaching something harmful!
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The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" (Denzinger, n. 801).
Lionel:
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
Canon IV-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema."- Council of Trent
The Council of Trent only referred to the baptism of desire. It did not say that these cases were known and visible to us. So it did not say that they were defacto exceptions to all needing the baptism of water for salvation in the present times.Since if they are not known to us in personal cases they cannot be exceptions to all needing the baptism of water in the present times for salvation.
Also no where in the Council of Trent is it said that these cases are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.- Letter of the Holy Office 1949
Lionel:
Mystici Corporis does not state that those who are united only by desire are personally known to us and so are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It only mentions these cases are possibilities. It does not state also that these possibilities could not also receive the baptism of water.
This sadly has all been inferred by Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani.
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However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.- Letter of the Holy Office 1949
Lionel:
And for him these cases are personally known to become an exception to the dogma.Otherwise why mention it?
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These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949
Lionel:
How can you distinguish those who are united to the Church only by desire? These persons are not on earth.
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The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.. - Letter of the Holy Office 1949
Lionel
Not required to be incorporated into the Church actually as a member? This was the teaching of the dogma. So it all has been changed.Non Catholics are not always required to be incorporated into the Church, since in 1949 they knew of some exceptions. These cases were explicit for them?
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However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. - Letter of the Holy Office 1949
Lionel:
Need not always be explicit ? When can implicit desire be explicit for us? Was implicit desire explict in 1949? Yes it was! This is inferred by Rome.
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- no one at the time before or after the letter of 1949 named a particular person or persons that were known to be already saved outside the visible Catholic Church
Lionel:
They did not name any one. However they inferred there were known cases.They inferred that there were exceptions.___________________________________

-The letter of 1949 was followed by 20 strong years of faithful catechesis. HMMMMM
Lionel:
Catechesis with error.
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- The SPPX will not reconcile without a Syllabus of Errors on Vatican Council II.
-The Nicene and Apostles Creed profess and state that we believe that there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church and the absolute necessity of Baptism by water If .Fr.Anthony Cekada and Fr.Francois Laisney of the SSPX said that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma according to Church documents of the past they are wrong. Please cite me their exact quotes. 
Lionel:
They inferred it. For them the baptism of desire for example was an exception to the dogma.
It can be confirmed in the book Is Feeneyism Catholic by Fr.Francois Laisney which is published by the SSPX USA ( Angelus Press).The error is also there on the SSPX USA website. See Feeneyism.
Fr.Anthony Cekada had written an article which was available online a few years back. He said the Feeneyites were in mortal sin for rejecting the baptism of desire etc.He meant the baptism of desire was an exception to the dogma. So he inferred, whether he knew it or not, that these cases were known to be exceptions.
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No nowhere does Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 make an objective mistake when he assumed there were exceptions to the traditional interpretation. 
Lionel:
Please refer to the examples above.
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That is just wrong and do not say that is what thought for you can only conclude that which he wrote in the letter. Besides it what you say is true there would have been a correction very quickly
-Sorry but no you may not use or quote directly any priest or name them for I will not have it on my conscience that a good and holy priest was removed from the priesthood for telling the truth because of my efforts. I already know personally two very holy priests who are on sabbatical order for teaching the truth.
-Lionel Andrades

The surest path to salvation is through the Church Christ Himself created – the Catholic Church

Only Catholics go to heaven?

Tuesday, September 7, 2010 A.D.
Father Leonard Feeney, S.J. knew there is no salvation outside the Church. He knew and taught that only members of the Catholic Church could be saved. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus – “outside The Church there is no salvation.” That is Catholic doctrine and that is what he quiet literally taught.
Lionel:
This was the traditional interpretation of the dogma for centuries in the Catholic Church until Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani 'discovered' that there were explicit exceptions.
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There was one problem. Father Feeney interpreted the doctrine incorrectly.
Lionel:
He could not say that he could see cases of persons saved with the baptism of desire and who were in Heaven in 1949. Marchetti could.
He could not say that there were no Church documents before 1949 which mentione that there were explicit exceptions to the dogma on salvation. The cardinal and the Holy Office in 1949 could.
Since he could not say that there were personally known exceptions to the dogma his traditional view became an in correct doctrine.
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The Magisterium does not teach that only Catholics can go to heaven.
Lionel:
It did teach this. This was before the 1949 new theory.
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Ironically, the good Father made the Protestant error of making a personal interpretation. He meant well, but his insistent disobedience to the authority of the Church unfortunately resulted in his excommunication. By God’s mercy he was reconciled many years later before his death in 1978.
Lionel:
When he was reconcile he was still saying that he could not see persons in Heaven who were exceptions to the dogma. The Magisterium was still saying that they could !
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Catholics do NOT believe that formal membership in the Catholic Church is an absolute requirement for salvation.
Lionel:
I do.
Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) says all need faith and baptism for salvation. All need to be formal members of the Catholic Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.
One can only choose to be saved with the baptism of water. We cannot give ourself the baptism of desire or blood in 2015 and assume we will be saved.
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If you are Protestant (for example), we do NOT believe that you are necessarily condemned to hell.
Lionel:
The dogma and Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14) say you are.
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I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.John 10:16
Lionel
Yes they will hear His voice and enter the Catholic Church formally, with Catholic Faith.
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That said, we DO believe that there is no salvation outside the one and only Church instituted directly by Christ.
Lionel:
No you don't. You are denying the necessity for all to be formal members of trhe Church. You are rejecting Vatican Council II(AG 7).
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Jesus is the universal Savior, working through his Church and indivisible from it. The living and historical Church works in a wider sphere than its direct members. I can say with complete confidence that while non-Catholics can go to heaven, there are only Catholics in it! At that point we are all fully united in the Body of Christ.
Lionel:
Agreed! There are only Catholics in Heaven.
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It is a sad fact that there are Christian communities separated from the Church. In their memberships are large numbers of people who seek God with a sincere heart and truly desire to follow His will. Through no fault of their own, they do not know or accept Christ’s Church. They may be aware of the Catholic Church, but through misinformation, conditioning and circumstance, are closed to it. While they know Christ, if not His Church, they are not cut off from God’s mercy.
Lionel:
Yes. However before they die they need to become formal members of the Church to avoid Hell.By entering the Church they avail of God's Mercy.
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Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.Gaudium et Spes 22
Lionel:
Yes salvation is offered to all. The possibility exists for all. To receive this salvation all need to formally enter the Catholic Church .( Dominus Iesus 20)
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Even non-Christians may be saved. The Catechism explains it as follows:
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.CCC 1260
Lionel:
Here there is a reference to a hypothetial case.Hypothethical cases are not defacto, explicit exceptions in 2015 to all needing 'faith and baptism' (AG 7) for salvation, to avoid Hell and go to Heaven.
So CCC 1260 does not contradict the dogma or AG 7.
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Brothers and sisters please take heed, this is not a “get out of jail free card” to simply find a church that fits your lifestyle. One is not free to ignore God’s will. To the degree that you or your denomination pervert God’s will to that of your own, you are at grave risk. If you are Catholic, being fully aware of the teaching of the Church and rejecting it – you are especially at risk.
Lionel:
Yes.
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None of us on earth today definitively knows our own fate. Our final judgment has not yet been determined. Through His Son Jesus Christ, God has given us His Church to feed and tend us. There are many independent churches that operate in His name with sincere and faithful members. Their hope is not unfounded, but their path is precarious. The surest path to salvation is through the Church Christ Himself created – the Catholic Church.
Lionel:
Agreed.
-Lionel Andrades
 

The SSPX has nothing to say!?


Quite so, Lionel, I do not disagree. But you must know, based on her teaching elsewhere within these same documents, that the Church is using "knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved" purely in the objective sense (as well she should), with "knowing" being a deliberate and culpable act of the will against what the Muslim or Jew knows to be the true teaching of Christ.

Lionel:
Yes!
The magisterium has accepted the mistake from the 1949 Letter.
However we have a choice. We can still interpret the Council based on Ad Gentes 7. This would be traditional and in line with the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church.

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This is the approach traditionally taken by the Church with Muslims, Jews and the Orthodox, assuming, for the sake of their salvation, the urgency of accepting the truths of the Church, once they are known. Subjectively, however, we cannot know if "mortal sin" actually exists. The Church, in the name of ecumenism, would rather assume "good will" and place its faith in a sort of collective ignorance, even if they "know", at least objectively, full well what the Church actually teaches.

Lionel:
Yes the Magisterium is using the Marchetti inference. Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani assumed there was salvation outside the Church. For him cases of the baptism of desire etc were visible and personally known in 1949.Otherwise how could there be exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma ?. So he assumed that all do not need to enter the Church. Since there were known exceptions for him in 1949.Persons saved and now in Heaven were known exceptions! This is irrational and makes no sense.Yet upon this nonsense he concluded that all do not need to enter the Church.This was accepted during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII . It still is accepted today by the Vatican Curia.

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Sadly, we know where the emphasis on the subjective has lead - the assumption that the
Church is NOT necessary for salvation since any subjective "good-willed' orientation towards the truth and the Church, even while rejecting Christ and several of her dogmas, is not perceived as a true barrier to one's salvation.

Lionel:
Yes!
It is heresy and irrationality which is the official teaching of the magisterium and they want the SSPX and the Franciscans of the Immaculater to interpret Vatican Council II with this heresy.

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For the sake of men's salvation, the Church needs to reclaim some of her "rigorous" wisdom, and stop pretending, as a matter of de facto policy, that those traveling outside the one
true Church are on a path to salvation.

Lionel:
The Vatican does not seem to want to make the correction. Neither are the traditionalists commenting upon this.
Marchetti was in error and the Magisterium approved it. The SSPX has nothing to say!?
-Lionel Andrades