Sunday, February 8, 2015

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf interprets Vatican Council II with Marchetti's theory so the Council for him is ambigous and a break with extra ecclesiam nulla salus - 2

This report is a continuation of the blogpost:

Fr.John Zuhlsdorf interprets Vatican Council II with Marchetti's theory so the Council for him is ambigous and a break with extra ecclesiam nulla salus


From a reader…
To begin, I want to let you know how much I enjoy reading your blog – Thank you. I have always struggled with the teaching of “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus”. Is this doctrinal? My thoughts always go to seemingly sincere and good Christians of other denominations and how it can be that in their error, they are damned. Any thoughts you an share would be appreciated.
The dogma and Vatican Coiuncil II (AG 7) say all need to enter the Church for salvation. If there is a sincere Christian who will be saved or is saved,outside the Catholic Church, it would not be known to us.It would not be known to Fr.Z.  
A good deal of ink has been spilled over this concept, rooted in Holy Scripture and the consistent tradition of the Church.
We know from the Gospels that Our Lord established the Church as His vehicle for the salvation of humanity.
It was in 1949 that a cardinal of the Holy Office made an un precedented statement. He suggested that there was known salvation outside the Catholic Church and so some people did not need the baptism of water. For him these cases were known, visible in the flesh for them, to be actually, practically exceptions to the dogma. He also suggested that there were references to this 'teaching' in previous magisterial documents.False on all three counts!
He ordered us to preach the Gospel to all nations, and taught that baptism is essential for salvation.
The cardinal also suggested that since there was known salvation outside the Church there would be non Catholics saved in 1949 who were exceptions to the need of the Great Commission. Every one did not need to enter the Church.
This was accepted by the Archbishop and Jesuits of Boston who were active at Vatican Council II. Since there were known cases of persons saved outside the Church, LG 14 suggests only they need to enter the Church who 'know' and AG 7 suggests those in invincible ignorance would be exceptions, since we know who they are. We know there are exceptions!
St. Cyprian of Carthage (+258) wrote, “Salus extra ecclesiam non est” (ep. 72, Ad Iubaianum de hereticis baptizandis). Even earlier, Origen, wrote, “Let no man deceive himself. Outside this house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved.” (Homily on the Birth of Jesus). Clearly from both the Fathers and from the Magisterium of the Church we have a consistent teaching that the Church is THE vehicle of the salvation.
Patently false!The cardinal says there is known salvation outside the Church and St.Cyprian of Carthage says no there is not.
The dogma defined by three Church Councils says there is no salvation outside the Church the cardinal in 1949 says there is . So he faults Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center.
The Church still maintains that and teaches, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is His Body.” (CCC 846)
This is a vague statement which accomodates the error of the cardinal in 1949. For the Catechism (1257) there is known salvation outside the Church.
This is irrational. Since these cases are in Heaven. How  can they be exceptions on earth? The Catechism accepted this nonsense.
This is a positive formulation of the doctrine, in contrast to the flip side, “there is no salvation outside the Church”.
Lionel :
The positive side accomodates an irrationality: the dead now saved with the baptism of desire are visible in the flesh to be known exceptions to all defacto needing the Gospel. It contradicts the traditional teaching of the dogma.
The Church has always taught that we do not know the inscrutable ways of God.
Before 1949 the Church taught that they knew the inscrutable ways of God which said all need to be formal members of the Church for salvation.
Can those who appear to be visibly outside of the Church attain heaven?
Who would Fr.Z know who will be saved in 2015 who is not a visible member of the Church? 
Not through their own merit.  None of us attains heaven through our own merit. We have the example of Christ Himself, who stated that, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:5). That’s pretty straightforward.  But then, on the Cross, He informed the Good Thief that He would be in paradise (Luke 23:43).
Who will be saved in 2015 as the 'good thief' and so would not need to be a formal member of the Church with faith and baptism?
How do we square those things? There’s no indication that the Good Thief was “born of water and the Spirit”, yet we know he attained heaven.
In theory, hypothetically a person could be saved with the baptism of desire (followed with the baptism of water) in practise, in real life, in 2015, defacto, objectively, visible to us - there is no such case and there cannot be any such case. Since all salvation in Heaven in the present times is visible only to God. 
If baptism is the entrance into the Church, and outside the Church there is no salvation, how can we say that the Good Thief is in heaven?
The Bible tells us so.So we know He is in Heaven. 
We also have the consistent teaching of the Church on the concept of invincible ignorance. 
No Church document before 1949 says invincible ignorance is an exception to the dogma. So we have an inconsistent teaching in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
There are those who, through no fault of their own, have not heard the Gospel message. Are they all guaranteed to be damned? No.
Those who die with Original Sin and mortal sins committed in that state are on the way to Hell. This was the dogmatic teaching for centuries and so there was mission.
  St. Augustine commented in a homily once on the sheep who are outside of the flock and the wolves who are within (tr. eu. Io. 45.12). Bl. Pius IX wrote
“It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God.
The pope refers to those outside the Church who are in ignorance and who will be saved he does not state that they cannot  be saved by God sending them a preacher.
He does not say that they are known to him or others in that time.
He does not say that they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. 
Now in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For in truth, when released from these corporeal chains, ‘we shall see God as He is’ (1 John 3:2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this moral mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is ‘one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry. But just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, ‘for the hand of the Lord is not shortened’ (Isaiah 9:1) and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting to those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light.” (Allocution “Singulari quadam” 9 December 1854).
Is it possible to be saved outside of the Catholic Church? No. It is not.
De facto no. In principle , de jure cases of a person in another religion who is saved would also be saved with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. This was the dogmatic teaching. Also someone in invincible ignorance could be saved  when God would send a preacher to him as St.Thomas Aquinas taught.Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggianni did not know of any exception. So he had no right to bring a new teaching into the Church.There was no known salvation outside the Church for him and no pre-1949 document claimed there was salvation as such.
Salvation comes through the Church.
By being a formal member of the Church! Cardinale Marchetti did not know of any exception outside the Church.
Is it possible that those who seem to be outside of the Catholic Church end up in heaven?
God’s mercy and judgment are such that His understanding of salvation in and through the Church is on a different plane than ours is in this life.
The bottom line is that we do not know of any such case who would be an exception to the dogma.
It is possible for those who, due to invincible ignorance, appear to remain outside the Church are, somehow, saved in and through the Church. This possibility should, in no way, shape, or form, allow us to relax our efforts to work and pray for the spread of the Gospel and for seeking to get as many of our brothers and sisters as we possibly can into the Ark of Salvation, the Holy Catholic Church.
This 'possibility' is not an explicit exception to the dogma. A possibility is only a hypothethical case.
Bottom line: God is not limited by our understanding. 
The dogma says all need to formally enter the Church and Marchetti did not know of any exception to the dogma.
 God can save whom it pleaseth Him to save.  Can He save people who are not visibly and formally within the embrace of Holy Catholic Church, and not even baptized?  Yes.  He can.  We don’t know how He might do that, but He can, whether we understand it or not.   In any event, any person who is saved, is saved through the merits of the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, and that salvation and those merits are mediated – somehow – through the only Church that He found, the Catholic Church.
Any one who is saved is saved through Catholic Faith  which includes the baptism of water. In Heaven there are only Catholics. They are there without mortal sin on their soul. This is the dogmatic teaching and we do not and cannot know of any exception.
Also, I want to remind everyone what the Second Vatican Council said in Lumen gentium 14:
“They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.”
This comes to us from the Marchetti Theory. Anyway it does not state in the text that these cases are known to us or that they are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Fr.Z infers this. 
This is a major  error in his interpretation of Vatican Council II. Without the Marchetti Theory Vatican  Council does not contradict the traditional and 'rigorist' interpretatioin of outside the Church there is no salvation.It is a dogma of the Church and not an aphorism as the Catechism would want us to believe.
Cardinal Marchetti in the first part of the Letter supports the traditional interpretation of the dogma as having no exceptions. In the second part of that controversial letter he suggests that invincible ignorance and implicit desire were exceptions. So he contradicts the first part.
The same error-pattern is there in CCC 1257, On the Necessity of Baptism.It says God is not limited to the Sacraments and also the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water. In other words all need the baptism of water but some do not.This is contrary to the Principle of Non Contradiction.It reflects the Marchetti Error.
This same error Fr.John Zuhlsdorf uses to interpret Vatican Council II as a break with extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Syllabus or Errors and the Catechism, of Pope Pius X.
-Lionel Andrades