Sunday, January 11, 2015

Patrick Archbold cannot defend his position on the Dallas blog

2. Baseballmom - January 10, 2015
So my NO pastor keeps saying that EENS was declared to be a heresy by the Church… Where would THAT be coming from? I want to challenge him on this but do not know where to start…
Rebecca Joan - January 10, 2015
from his loony mind lmao Outside the Church there is no salvation is a dogma of the Church and it has been repeated many many times. Baptism of desire or blood is NOT a dogma of the Church, it is a theory at best, heterodox at worst. Myself I lean toward it being a ridiculous theory that only encourages people to not evangelize and it needs to go.
Tim Thunell - January 11, 2015
Ask him which pope or council declared it a heresy. Where’s it coming from?…..his own modernism…..which is a heresy. Do yourselfa favor….stay clear of the Novus Ordo at all costs.
richardmalcolm1564 - January 11, 2015
Ask him to cite his source.
3. Patrick Archbold - January 10, 2015
Personally, I am all for a more forceful presentation of EENS. I used the Feeney line as shorthand for an absolutist position, but perhaps that is unfair.
4. Terrye Newkirk - January 11, 2015

Archbishop Thomas Gullickson, John Martigioni and Fr.Rev. Fr.P. Stefano Visintin OSB, Dean of the Faculty of Theology at the Pontifical University St.Anselm agree with me : there are no visible exceptions.

Comments from "Extra ecclesiam nulla salus" - What does it mean? 

DECEMBER 19, 2014

But, You do have a history of making-up stuff and posting partial quotes to give the appearance of others agreeing with you - a practice all can see in here on this thread where you continue to claim that what MJ posted actually supports your argument.
I don't know who is MJ.
I have mentioned that Archbishop Thomas E.Gullickson, Fr.Stepehn Visintin, Dean of Theology at the Pontifical University of St.Anslem, Rome and the American apologist John Martigioni agree with me. There are also many priests in Rome who agree with me . I have quoted them on my blog.Recently an FSSP priest in Rome Fr.Marco Hausmann agreed with me.
I am not saying anything extraordinary and neither are they.It is a fact of life that we cannot see or know exceptions to the dogma.
Dear Lionel. It was M.Js intention to bury your support for Feeney's heresy under an avalanche of sources...
There is not a single quote from Tradition before 1949 which says that the baptism of desire is known and visible to us and so is an exception to the centuries old interpretation of the dogma.
Not a single quote! Not a single source.
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 was a break with Tradition.

But MJ doubts you will be able to convince others that Feeney was right and the Catholic church wrong.
I have quoted above an American Archbishop, a Benedictine Dean of Theology and an American apologist.They agree with me.
There are no known exceptions to the dogma. This is something fundamental. Even Catholics with no knowledge of theology agree. 

Musings of a Pertinacious Papist
Archbishop Thomas E.Gullickson says Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Syllabus of Errors


Catholic Religious indicate the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 made a factual mistake :implicit desire etc is not visible to us 

Catholic religious contradict Bishop Fellay : Nostra Aetate is not an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus


How can zero cases of something be considered exceptions ?- John Martigioni

Implicit intention, invincible ignorance and a good conscience (LG 16) in Vatican Council II do not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus –John Martigioni
-Lionel Andrades

Fr.Marco Hausmann FSSP confirms: there are no physically visible cases of the baptism of desire

I met Fr.Marco Hausmann FSSP briefly this morning and he confirmed that he still believes that we cannot physically see people saved with the baptism of desire etc and there are no such cases in 2015.
He also laughed when I asked him this question again. A few Sundays back he agreed that there were no known exceptions to the traditional interpretation of extra eclesiam nulla salus.We do not know of anyone who is an exception or will be an exception. This is known only to God.

I have to keep asking this question,"Can we see the dead- saved, are they physically visible to us" since an error was made in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 when Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani criticized Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Center .He criticized them for not accepting the baptism of desire etc as an exception to the traditional interpretation of the dogma.Since then most Catholics believe that the dead saved as such are physically visible to us , for them to be exceptions to the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma.They would have to be visible and known tobe exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell.
Last week a Brazilian priest also confirmed that there are no known exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known over the centuries. Another Brazilian priest who offered Mass in Italian a few years back said the same thing.So have other priests in Rome who offer the Novus Ordo Mass.They say the baptism of desire is not an exception to the traditional Feeneyite version of no salvation outside the Church.They have responded to the two questions I have asked them.
The same two questions answered by them are not being responded to by the Auxiliary Bishops of Rome and some cardinals here.
In  other words, the priests are saying that there is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict the dogma. Vatican Council II is traditional on other religions and Christian communities. Since LG 16,LG 8,UR 3,NA 2 etc would refer to only possibilities which would be followed with the baptism of water since this is de fide. Every one defacto needs the baptism of water for salvation. There is nothing referred to in Vatican Council II which would  be a known exception to the interpretation of the Church Councils. popes,saints and Fr.Leonard Feeney.
-Lionel Andrades

There are no exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The baptism of desire is not a defacto exception says a Brazilian priest today