Introibo Ad Altare Dei (IAAD) has posted new comments. I re produce them here with my answers:
- To my readers,
I'm sure you're wondering by now, "Why does Introibo continue to engage this "reason-challenged" Man, Lionel Andrades? We get it: he's bizarre"
It's precisely for this reason, I continue my decimation of his pathetic arguments. He's "Fenneyism on steroids." A Vatican II Feeneyite, the worst type. As I said before, the Feeneyites reject the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church, and therefore do not accept what Catholics must believe.Lionel: I speak for myself. I am a Feeneyite but then so were the popes and saints before 1808.The Bible is pro- Feenyism in John 3:5 and Mark 16:16. - Ironically, this puts them outside the Church as heretics even as they misunderstand Church teaching.
- Lionel: A sedevacantist saying I am outside the Church when I affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, hypothetical and invisible for us baptism of desire and baptism of blood and a Vatican Council II in which LG 16 etc refer to invisible and not visible cases ? Which teaching have I rejected? You instead reject Vatican Council and invisible for us and known only to God BOD and BOB.For you BOD and BOB are explicit and so you reject the defined dogma EENS. So this is also a rejection of the dogma on the infallibility of the pope ex cathedra.
- I hope these comments serve to help you see the sheer insanity that is Feenyism, and the futile pseudo-arguments they propose. Here we go again!
Lionel: Vatican Council II is traditional on other religions and ecumenism.Yet this is not the position held by traditionalists and sedevacantists. They infer that they can see the dead, that the deceased now in Heaven, are part of their visible reality on earth and they are not aware of this irrationality.
Introibo: No, Lionel. This is not about seeing dead people. It is about irrationality: Yours and all Feeneyites; especially those who belong to the Vatican II sect. - Lionel: If you refer to BOD and BOB as relevant to the dogma EENS you are inferring that YOU can see the dead in Heaven.So I have to keep mentioning this. This is irrational. This is the irrationality I refer to i.e BOD and BOD cases are in Heaven.So how can they be on earth, exceptions to EENS?
- You will not make the explicit- implicit distinction which is part of philsophy and reasoning. You will not address this specific issue now over four months.
Protestant SECTS are not a "means of salvation." As Pope Leo XIII taught in "Tametsi" (November 1, 1900) "Consequently, all those who wish to reach salvation outside the Church, are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a vain effort."Lionel: The issue is does UR say that Protestant sects are a means of salvation.It does not for me. - The dogma EENS says Protestants need to convert and Vatican Council II (UR 3) refer to invisible, speculative cases of salvation among Protestants and other Christians.Since they are invisble for us they do not contradict EENS. If a Protestant is in Heaven it is because he is a Catholic in Heaven. In Heaven according to the dogma EENS there are only Catholics in Heaven.So the dogma says all need explicit baptism of water and UR 3 does not refer to explicit cases in our time.
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- If one follows the teachings of Protestant sects (and we can see these sects Lionel!) you will be outside the Church and go Hell.
- Lionel: Yes .I agree.
Of course, I can't see the dead but I can anticipate your stupidity: "But can we see anybody in Hell from following these sects?" It doesn't matter Lionel. It's against the Faith, just like saying "Christ COULD sin" is heretical and against the Faith, even if we can't see Him in 2015. - Lionel:
- When you say that BOD and BOB are relevant to EENS then you imply that you can see the dead and these deceased now in Heaven are visible exceptions to all needing the baptism of water in the Church. This is the specific argument.You do not know any one in 2015 who will die with BOD and without the baptism of water. Four months and you have not touched this issue.You probably know that the entire sede theology will crumble. Since it is based on an objective error.
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Vatican II is traditional on ecumenism? "Traditional ecumenism" is an oxymoron like "intelligent Feeneyite." Lionel is fond of invoking Cantate Domino which says, "t firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."
- Lionel: Yes this is the citation from Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441 on extra ecclesiam nulla salus. There is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict it.
- So there is no contradiction to Cantate Domino, on ecumenism. Cantate Dominio says heretics ( Protestants) and schismatics ( Orthodox Christians) need to formally convert into the Catholic Church.LG 16, UR 3, NA 2, LG 8 etc being invisible for us and known only to God are not exceptions to Cantate Dominio.They are not relevant.
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- I don't see anything their about baptism with water, or no baptism of desire/blood. It clearly talks about nothing helping the non-Catholic achieve salvation, even "if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ" because they are OUTSIDE the Church and do not wish to enter. Those who receive BOB want to be united and die as Catholics within the Church.
- Lionel: I repeat : it does not refer to BOD or BOB with or without the baptism of water. Neither does it state there are any exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Catholic Church.Instead it suggests there are no exceptions.
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HOWEVER, Vatican II states, "Unitatis redintegratio # 4:"On the other hand, Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments which derive from our common heritage and which are to be found among our separated brothers and sisters. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and the virtuous deeds in the lives of others who bear witness to Christ, even at times to the shedding of their blood."
Vatican II praises "our separated brothers and sisters" (i.e. heretics and schismatics) who "bear witness to Christ" "Even at times to the shedding of their blood." Protestants who bear witness to the false sects and shed their blood for it are praised by Vatican II. Doesn't THIS contradict Cantate Domino, Lionel? - Lionel: No it does not contradict Cantante Domino since it refers to the good things in Christians communities and churches only . They believe in Jesus. They have faith. They follow the 10 Commandments of Moses. They have the same historical liturgy as us i.e post Constantine. They use much of the Catholic Bible. They have a common heritage as us in so many aspects...
- Vatican Council II does not say that they do not need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.This could be your inference but it is not there in the text. The Council does not contradict Cantate Dominio on ecumenism. There is no contradiction on the traditional teaching on other religions and salvation.The text has not changed ecclesiology.
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- Introibo: The First Vatican Council was not enumerating everything taught by the universal and Ordinary Magisterium;
Lionel: Fine. So then there should not be a problem if you agree that not everything was being enumerated.
Introibo: There's a big problem for you! - Lionel: To say BOD and BOB are explicit cases and so they contradict 1) the dogma on the infallibility of the pope ex cathedra and 2) the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, is a problem for you and the other sedevacantists and traditionalists. I do not claim BOB and BOD are explicit or even relevant to EENS.-Lionel Andrades ( to be continued in the next blog post) p.s Please excuse the numbers on the left hand side. I do not know how to delete them.
Sedevacantist decides not to answer if LG 16, LG 8, UR 3 etc refer to explicit or implicit cases - 2
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/sedevacantist-decides-not-to-answer-if_13.html
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/sedevacantist-decides-not-to-answer-if_13.html
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