Monday, November 9, 2015

The Catechism(1992) assumes BOD and BOB are explicit : this is the mistake in Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) and the Letter of the Holy Office

IAAD  has posted a comment on his blog (Introibo Ad Altare Dei) and has alerted me to it. Here it is:










  1. To my readers:
    I hope you will pardon me if I answer a "challenge" from Mr. Andrades. He's calling into question my integrity. I will print his challenge, and answer it USING HIS OWN "LOGIC." No more on this topic for awhile--that's why I'm keeping it in the comments section of this post!

    Andrades: "I am saying there are no BOD cases on earth for us humans since they are invisible.They are not visible to us humans. IAAD will avoid an answer. He will not agree or disagree with me. Four months and the sedes will not answer this simple, rational question.

    If for arguments sake I say, " O.K I accept BOD leading to salvation, now please tell me is BOD invisible or visible for us human beings ?" There will be no answer from him."

    My answer: BOD cases are invisible. My question to Andrades: Are Baptism with water (BOW) cases visible or invisible to us on earth? They are invisible! What pope has seen the dead in Heaven with BOW? Who can I meet or see today, in 2015, who has been saved by BOW?

    Not only are the "exceptions" invisible, but so is the rule! EENS and BOW are therefore only invisible and implicit for us on Earth. We don't know of anyone in Heaven with BOW, we can't see the dead. EENS and BOW are therefore only hypothetical and known only to God.

    They only become explicit if you use the irrational premise of "Lionelism" which teaches:

    1. You "accept" that the universal and ordinary Magisterium is infallible, but you believe that the catechisms promulgated by popes (by which the ordinary Magisterium operates) contain errors and heresy.

    2. Francis can be a heretic, yet he remains "pope" against the teaching of the Church and YOU decide what to accept or reject like a Protestant.

    3. There is no discontinuity between pre and post Vatican II teaching, but there IS such a discontinuity pre and post 1808. Nevertheless, it remains the same Church (!)

    4. The Magisterium can teach falsehoods. The Holy Ghost is unable to prevent error from being taught through "pressure groups," "innocent mistakes," and the like.

    Welcome to the irrationality and heresy that propogated by Lionel Andrades.- IAAD . Comment on the blog Ad Altare Dei
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IAAD:
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To my readers:
I hope you will pardon me if I answer a "challenge" from Mr. Andrades. He's calling into question my integrity. I will print his challenge, and answer it USING HIS OWN "LOGIC." No more on this topic for awhile--that's why I'm keeping it in the comments section of this post!
Lionel:
 I am discussing this subject doctrinally. I do not make any judgement on IAAD's integrity. He seems sincere but is using the same wrong premise and inference of  Bishop Donald Sanborn and the other sedevacantists.
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 He does not differentiate between what is visible and invisible , objective and subjective, defacto and in principle, theoretical and known in reality, hypothetical and real.

IAAD:
Andrades: "I am saying there are no BOD cases on earth for us humans since they are invisible.They are not visible to us humans. IAAD will avoid an answer. He will not agree or disagree with me. Four months and the sedes will not answer this simple, rational question.
If for arguments sake I say, " O.K I accept BOD leading to salvation, now please tell me is BOD invisible or visible for us human beings ?" There will be no answer from him."
My answer: BOD cases are invisible.
Lionel:
Good.Good so we agree that BOD cases are invisible.

IAAD:
My question to Andrades: Are Baptism with water (BOW) cases visible or invisible to us on earth? They are invisible! What pope has seen the dead in Heaven with BOW? Who can I meet or see today, in 2015, who has been saved by BOW?
Lionel:
There is confusion here.
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My question to Andrades: Are Baptism with water (BOW) cases visible or invisible to us on earth? They are invisible!
The baptism of water is always visible for us. We can give it to someone we can repeat it. This is not possible with BOD(Baptism of Desire).
However the issue is : are there exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, is BOD an exception? Is BOD relevant to EENS? Does everyone need to be a formal member of the Church this year or can there be an exception? Was St. Emerentiana an exception to EENS or was she irrelevant?
When being saved with BOD or the baptism of blood ( BOB) is invisible for us, these cases have nothing to do with the dogma. They do not exist in our reality.
This is the point I want to make. So I have to keep asking is BOD and BOB visible or invisible, whenever  it is assumed that BOD and BOB are relevant to EENS or is an exception.
What pope has seen the dead in Heaven with BOW? Who can I meet or see today, in 2015, who has been saved by BOW?
No contempory pope has seen the dead in Heaven.In faith we know the saints are in Heaven.Objectively I  cannot say that any particular person has been saved with BOD or BOB.Explicitly I cannot say any one on earth will be going to Heaven.lmplicitly, subjectively I can hope and pray that a person goes to Heaven and I can believe he is in Heaven.Objectively I cannot say that any one is an exception to the dogma which says all need faith and baptism.I cannot claim someone on earth does not need faith and baptism for salvation.The dogma  indicates, most people are on the way to Hell since they do no have faith and baptism at the time of death.
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Who can I meet or see today, in 2015, who has been saved by BOW?
I cannot meet any one or see any one today in 2015 who has been saved by the baptism of water and is in Heaven.Neither can I meet any one saved with BOD and BOB.At a funeral with  faith I can pray for someone hoping he will go to Heaven.
So IAAD and I agree that BOD and BOB cases are invisible for us. For me they cannot be an exception or even relevant to the dogma EENS.All need the baptism of water explicitly, for salvation.Every one in 2015 needs to be ' a card carrying member' of the Church to go to Heaven,like Fr. Leonard Feeney taught.Every one needs to have his name on the parish Baptismal Register to avoid Hell.
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Not only are the "exceptions" invisible, but so is the rule! EENS and BOW are therefore only invisible and implicit for us on Earth. We don't know of anyone in Heaven with BOW, we can't see the dead. EENS and BOW are therefore only hypothetical and known only to God.
Lionel:
There is confusion here.We accept EENS and the baptism of water in faith, as part of the Catholic Faith. We believe they are the teachings of God for the Catholic Church. This is a truth which God wants us to follow.
IAAD and I now also agree that BOD and BOB refer to invisible cases.For me they are not relevant or exceptions to EENS and the necessity of the Baptism of water for all with no exceptions.This is the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church.
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They only become explicit if you use the irrational premise of "Lionelism" which teaches:
Lionel:
The baptism of water is always explicit. EENS refers to all needing explicit baptism of water in the present times.If there is an exception the exception would also have to be explicit.
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1. You "accept" that the universal and ordinary Magisterium is infallible, but you believe that the catechisms promulgated by popes (by which the ordinary Magisterium operates) contain errors and heresy.
Lionel
I believe the Extra ordinary Magisterium is infallible ( ex cathedra).
The ordinary magisterium is subject to human error. To infer BOD is explicit and so an exception to EENS is an error of the ordinary Magisterium.
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The catechisms, reflect the Ordinary Magisterium.The human error is there with reference  to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.This could be the influence of political or other lobbies. For instance the Catechism of the Catholic Church ( 1992) refers to an 'aphorism' outside the Church there is no salvation.It does not refer to a  dogma(CCC 846). The Catechism(1992)  does not cite the text of the dogma defined by three Church Councils. Instead it implies that BOD and BOB are relevant as an 'aphorism'.
It then repeats the mistake in Vatican Council II(AG 7, LG 14) and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. They both assumed BOD and BOB were visible.They both also imply that BOD and BOB refer to cases saved without the baptism of water.So it is then concluded that BOD and BOB  are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of EENS. The Catechism (1992) has rejected Feeneyism ( there are no exceptions to the dogma) and has accepted Cushingism ( there are explicit exceptions, visible- cases)
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 IAAD
2. Francis can be a heretic, yet he remains "pope" against the teaching of the Church and YOU decide what to accept or reject like a Protestant.
Lionel:
Yes I choose to remain in the Church.
The heresy is widespread and innocent. Even the sedes and trads are making the same error as the Vatican Curia.They can also change in future.
There was a time when I a made the same error innocently.
Pope Francis is still the pope, for me.

3. There is no discontinuity between pre and post Vatican II teaching, but there IS such a discontinuity pre and post 1808. Nevertheless, it remains the same Church (!)
Lionel:
Yes there is no discontinuity in pre and post Vatican Council II teaching only when the irrtional premise and inference is not used to interpret magisterial documents.This is new information here. 
There is discontinuity, when the irrational premise is used i.e BOD and BOB are explicit.So LG 16 becomes explicit and a break with the Feeneyite version of the dogma.Then post Vatican Council II is  break with pre Vatican Council II.
Of course, it still is the same Church.
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So once again I would ask IAAD : is LG 16 explicit or implicit for him. Is LG 16 invisible like BOD? For me it is invisible. So does invisible- for- us- LG 16, LG 8, UR 3, NA 2 contradict the strict interpretation of EENS? 

4. The Magisterium can teach falsehoods. The Holy Ghost is unable to prevent error from being taught through "pressure groups," "innocent mistakes," and the like.
Lionel:
The contemporary Magisterium is teaching a falsehood when it implies LG 16, LG 8, UR 3 etc refer to explicit cases.This is a break with the pre- 1808 Magisterium of the Church. A new doctrine has been created.This is human error.
The error is being corrected now and in future we can hope it will be identified by all and corrected.

Welcome to the irrationality and heresy that propogated by Lionel Andrades.
Lionel:
Lionel Andrades is affirming the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church in harmony with Vatican Council II. This is a Vatican Council II interpreted without an irrational premise and inference.For him there is no pre and post Vatican Council II conflict. There is no change in the ecclesiology of the Church before and after Vatican Council II.There are no new doctrines proposed. There is no new innovation accepted.So where is the irrationality and heresy?
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For him the Magisterium was in heresy in 1949 when the Letter of the Holy Office suggested that BOD, BOB and being saved in invincible ignorance were explicit and so relevant and exceptions to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Since then the contemporary Magisterium has been supported this heresy and irrationality and so have the traditionalists and sedevacantists.
-Lionel Andrades



Whatever be the reason for the saints and popes mentioning Baptism of Desire ( pressure from lobbies or ignorance) BOD is always invisible for us .This is something objective and not just a personal theory http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/whatever-be-reason-for-saints-and-popes.html

St. Thomas Aquinas held the Feeneyite version of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/st-thomas-aquinas-held-feeneyite.html


Sedevacantists do not realize that the baptism of desire will always be invisible for us. This is not a theory of mine. It is a fact of life.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/11/sedevantists-do-not-realize-that.html


Sedevacantists after months of discussions cannot answer if Lumen Gentium 16 is explicit or implicit and if it is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/10/message-incomplete-four-months-have.htmlRelated image

Cardinal Ottaviani did not know  http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.it/2015/10/beware-bizarre.html#comment-form 

http://introiboadaltaredei2.blogspot.it/2015/11/a-laver-of-regeneration-no-more.html#comment-form

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