Tuesday, July 14, 2015

This group of traditionalists instead of correcting the factual error of 1949 consolidated it and did not expose it

Bishop Dolan

From the sedevacantist website:

What's wrong with Vatican II? FAQs
 from "Vatican II, the Pope and the Mass" by Rev. Donald J. Sanborn

1. What is wrong with the Second Vatican Council?
The Second Vatican Council taught doctrines which had been already condemned by the Church, and enacted disciplines which are contrary to the Church's teaching and constant practice.
2. What doctrines did it teach which were already condemned?
There are four major errors concerning: (1) the unity of the Church; (2) ecumenism; (3) religious liberty; (4) collegiality.
3. What false doctrine does it teach concerning the unity of the Church?
Vatican II teaches heresy concerning the unity of the Church, namely that the Church of Christ is not exclusively identified with the Catholic Church, but merely subsists in it. This heretical doctrine is contained principally in Lumen Gentium, and its heretical meaning is confirmed in statements of Paul VI and his successors, particularly in the 1983 Code of Canon Law, in the 1992 Statement concerning Church and Communion, and in the Ecumenical Directory.
 It is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church, contained principally in Satis Cognitum of Pope Leo XIII, Mortalium Animos of Pope Pius XI, Mystici Corporis of Pope Pius XII, and in the condemnations of the "Branch Theory" made by the Holy Office under Pope Pius IX.
Lionel:
Ad Gentes 7 tells us that the Church of Christ is exclusively identified with the Catholic Church; it is with those who have 'faith and baptism'.This is a confirmation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the traditional rigorist interpretation.The dogma says all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church.
There is no text in Lumen Gentium 8 (subsistit it) which says all do not need faith and baptism.There is no text which says that the Church is not exclusively identified with the Catholic Church. It is the liberals, sedevacantists and many traditionalists, who infer that LG 8 says that the Church is not exclusively identified with the Catholic Church.

4. What false doctrine does it teach concerning ecumenism?
The teaching of Vatican II concerning ecumenism, which states that non-Catholic religions are a "means of salvation," is overtly heretical.
Lionel:
Where is the text which says that non Catholic religions are a means of salvation.This is an inference.The text admits the possibility of a non Catholic being saved in his religion.
We do not know of any one saved outside the Church without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. Neither does the text claim that there is such a person who is known to us.Neither does Bishop Sanborn know of any such person in the present times.
The dogma says outside the Church there is no salvation.Ad Gentes 7 says all need 'faith and baptism'. Let us call this statement A.It is an orthodox passage in Vatican Council II.
For Bishop Sanborn there is some text which says there are non Catholics saved. Let us call this statement B.For him these persons are not hypothetical cases but personally known cases in the present times.So B is an exception to A. They would have to be known to be exceptions to the dogma. Hypothetical cases cannot be defacto exceptions in the present times.So it is with this irrational premise he interprets Vatican Council II and then infers the Council is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the traditional teaching on ecumenism, the need for an ecumenism of return.
Bishop Sanborn is referring to a hypothetical case and he assumes it is objective in the present times to contradict the dogma.He is using the reasoning of Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani who assumed that the baptism of desire etc referred to known cases in 1949. So for Marchetti the baptism of desire was an exception to the dogma. For Marchetti the baptism of desire referred to known cases in 1949 who were saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.How could Marchetti know all this? 
Similarly how can Bishop Sanborn know someone saved by his religion or without the baptism of water ? Then why does he postulate this theoretical case as being an exception to traditional ecumenism according to the dogma?
___________________________


 This doctrine directly contradicts the teaching of the Church that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, called by Pope Pius IX "a most well-known Catholic dogma." 
Lionel:
If there are people saved in another religion and we do not know who they are then how can this contradict the rigorist interpretation of the dogma outside the Church there is no salvation?
___________________________

In addition, the ecumenical practices which have resulted from this heretical doctrine are directly contrary to Mortalium Animos of Pope Pius XI.
Lionel:
For Bishop Sanborn B is an exception to A. So Vatican Council II would contradict Mortalium Animos of Pope Pius XI.
____________________________

5. What false doctrine does it teach concerning religious liberty?
The teaching of Vatican II on religious liberty, contained in Dignitatis Humanae, nearly word for word asserts the very doctrine which was condemned by Pope Pius VII in Post Tam Diuturnas, by Pope Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos, by Pope Pius IX in Quanta Cura, and by Pope Leo XIII in Libertas Praestantissimum. The teaching of Vatican II on religious liberty also contradicts the royalty of Jesus Christ in society as expressed in Quas Primas of Pope Pius XI, and the constant attitude and practice of the Church with regard to civil society.
Lionel:
This is an opinion. It differs with other traditionalists.For them Dignitatis Humanae does not contradict the traditional teaching on religious liberty.
Immagine correlata
Bishop Sanborn interprets Vatican Council II with B being an exception to A. The liberals do the same.They also interpret Vatican Council II as a break with the past using the irrational reasoning of Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani.
Immagine correlata
The Marchetti error was accepted by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Michael Davis, Dietrich Von Hildrebrand and the magisterium of Pope Pius XII and John XXIII before Vatican Council II.The SSPX continues with this religous formation. This has been the formation of Fr.Anthony Cekada in the SSPX.
Bishop Donald Sanborn was ordained a priest by Archbishop Lefebvre.He was taught the same error.The same error is there in a book publised by Fr.Jean Marie Gleize with the Introduction of approval by Bishop Bernard Fellay.
This group of traditionalists instead of correcting the factual error of 1949 consolidated it and did not expose it.-Lionel Andrades

http://www.traditionalmass.org/issues/

http://www.traditionalmass.org/priests/sanborn.php




The subsist it confusion is based on B being an exception to A
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2015/07/subsist-it-confusion-based-on-b-is.html


No comments: