Tuesday, March 17, 2015

John Vennari assumes being saved in invincble ignorance is an exception to the dogma

John Vennari:
Editor’s Note: Because Catholic Family News often publishes articles that emphasize the infallible Catholic doctrine of “outside the Church there is no salvation,” we have sometimes been accused of implicitly denying Venerable Pope Pius IX’s teaching on invincible ignorance.1 In answer, we do not deny Pope Pius IX’s teaching on invincible ignorance.
Lionel:
I have mentioned in an earlier post that being saved in invincible ignorane is not related to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, it is not an exception to the traditional strict interpretation of the dogma. It is not relevant.
The Good Thief on the Cross or St.Emerentiana cannot be exceptions to the strict interpretation of the dogma. Since they existed centuries back. Exceptions must exist in the present times. Something or someone can only be an exception today. A possibility can be a possibility only.It cannot be an exception to the dogma today.
Every exception to all needing the baptism of water for salvation has to happen today.Otherwise it will not be an exception today.


An exception to the dogma on salvation must happen in the present times, today,living memory, existing time, visible and concrete, March 17,2015, Feast of St.Patrick.
Something that happened in the past cannot be an exception to the dogma on March 17.
Something that will happen in the future cannot be an exception to the dogma on outside the church there is no salvation.
Something that happens in Heaven and is known only to God, cannot be an exception on earth to the dogma today;someone in Heaven cannot be an exception o earth, to all needing to convert formally into the Church in March 2015.
So if someone dies in invincible ignorance ( with or without the baptism of water) it would be known only to God. So how could it be an exception or relevant to the strict interpretation of outside the Church there is no salvation ?
The message of the dogma is related to today.All need 'faith and baptism' for salvation today.All need to convert today into the Church to avoid the fires of Hell.
Even if someone were to die without faith and baptism ( which is not de fide) we would not know of any exception today.Humanly we cannot know. These persons would be dead and in Heaven.So why does John Vennari have to mention invincible ignorance with reference to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church ?
If  a pope, cardinal or magisterial document infers that there are exceptions today it is false.It has to be rejected.This is common sense.The dead -past, present or future- cannot be exceptions to all needing to convert into the Church today.
Cardinals Marchetti and Cushing in 1949 did not know of any exceptions.
At Vatican Council II ( 1960-1965) no one there knew of anyone saved without faith and baptism.
When Redemptoris Missio and Dominus Iesus were issued neither did Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger know of any exceptions to the dogma.
There is no known case of salvation outside the Church i.e without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.
So how can the Catechism of Pope John Paul II, Dominus Iesus, Redemptoris Missio and other magisterial documents, over seen by Cardinal Ratzinger, imply that there is salvation outside the Church? Yet they do.
The magisterium has made a factual error and John Vennari has not noticed it.Since he and the SSPX also assume that there are explicit exceptions to the dogma.
So neither can John Vennari nor the SSPX say that Vatican Council II II affirms the strict interpretation of the dogma with Ad Gentes 7 and there cannot possibly be exceptions in Vatican Council II to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
This is a common mistake among the SSPX in Italy,too.
-Lionel Andrades
 
The two hermeneutics depend on the use or omission of the irrational premise from Marchetti's letter
 


There being exceptions is the irrational reasoning used to interpret Vatican Council II by John Vennari, Chris Ferrara, John Salza and Louie Verrecchio

 
John Vennari, Cardinal Kaspar and so many others are misinterpreting these Church documents and then repeating the error in Vatican Council II
 
Cardinal Kaspar,John Vennari and Louie Verrecchio make the Council ambigous
 
Bishop Athanasius Schneider makes the same error as John Vennari and Louie Verrechio http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/bishop-athanasius-schneider-makes-same.html
-Lionel Andrades
February 23, 2015

Bishop Fellay uses a false premise when he assumes LG 8 refers to visible in the flesh cases : Doctrine has not changed unless you use a false premise.


 
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