Tuesday, March 10, 2015

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus tattoo?

Musings of a Pertinacious PapistI spent several hours tonight significantly revising and expanding the thing. If nothing else, pray over the following image, which I’m tempted to get tattooed on my shoulder blades.-Elliot Bougis
 
18.AFTER MASS REVIEW YOUR CATECHISM
I believe that nevertheless all those outside the Church though no fault of their own will be saved if they follow their conscience and do not die in mortal sin - and will have received the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
I believe that those who labour under ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance be invincible are not before God burdened by guilt of this thing- and if they are saved God will send a preacher to them who will instruct them and baptise them, as St. Thomas Aquinas taught.
I believe that this is what I mean when I say outside the Church there is no salvation - it is, that every one needs to be formal members of the Catholic Church with 'faith and baptism'(AG 7) and being saved in invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma, since we do not know of any explicit case in 2015.There cannot be any exceptions for us.
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Tony Jokin says:

I always found the line “that those will be lost who are convinced that the Catholic religion is the true religion, and yet refuse to embrace it” as missing key information.
Lionel:This line comes from the factual error Cardinal Francesco Marchetti Selvaggiani made when he issued the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
He assumed that being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire being exceptions to the traditional strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, referred to explicit cases, visible in 1949. So these objective cases referred to people for him, who would be saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. He  reasoned that only those who know ( as compared to those who are in ignorance) need to enter the Church.This has become a new confusing doctrine in the Church, which is  accepted by the magisterium. The line is inserted in Vatican Council II (LG 14 etc)_____________________________
Because taking that proposition as it is, I do not see how there is any need to preach the gospel at all.
Lionel: It is a proposition based on a factual error. Cardinal Marchetti could not see the dead saved without the baptism of water. He did not really know of any case of salvation outside the Church.
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It would appear that our success in convincing someone of the truth of the Catholic religion is what leads one to damnation in some cases. I am thinking of cases where conversion is very inconvenient for a person but a “Catholic idiot” decided to explain how the Catholic Church is the true Church to someone.
Lionel:Ad Gentes 7 anyway says all need faith and baptism for salvation. Also LG 14 has the same message . So we have the traditional teaching here.We cannot judge or know who 'knows' or 'who does not know' .This is known only to God. So we proclaim that all  need faith and baptism to avoid Hell .(AG 7,LG 14, Vatican Council II)
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If this were true, Christ shouldn’t have spoken about the fact that one would be hated by their family and loved ones for his name. He should have rather instructed the followers to refrain from preaching the good news lest it cause inconvenience and lead them to damnation.
Lionel: Affirm AG 7 and LG 14 and say there are no known exceptions in 2015 i.e we don't personally know anyone saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. You are back to the original extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Fr.Leonard Feeneyite, traditional version.You will be hated by just about all.
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So I believe that the key information missing in that proposition is that “often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.” (Lumen Gentium, 16). The key word being “often”.

I would say, practically speaking, it is highly unlikely, but not impossible, that someone who is outside of the Catholic Church will be saved.
Lionel: We do not know any such case in 2015. So it is not an issue with regard to the dogma. The cardinals Marchetti and Cushing made it appear as if it was relevant to the strict interpretation of the dogma.
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Since it is unlikely, no Catholic should use that proposition to define ones operating principles, especially with respect to missionary activity and fighting error.
Lionel:The operating principle is in Ad Gentes  7 and Lumen Gentium 14 and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.Cardinal Angelo Amato called for evangelisation based on LG 14 and AG 7, Vatican Council II-Lionel Andrades 
 

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