I received this e-mail yesterday and the discussion continues.
Thank you for your quick response. The good Monsignor truly does believe that Vatican Council II is not a break with past councils or past centuries on Church teaching that there is No salvation Outside the Catholic Church and all must be baptized with water. (Lionel: Could you ask him if he believes Vatican Council II affirms the ' rigorist interpretation' of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Feeneyite version?) He did say that a syllabus would be in order to correct , denounce or explain as the case may be the era of VCII. (Lionel: Would the Syllabus have to say that LG 16,LG 8,UR 3,NA 2 etc are not exceptions to the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?) There is much confusion and lack of clarity in understanding and faithful catechesis.(Lionel : Would the FSSP Monsignor say that according to Vatican Council II (AG 7- all need faith and baptism for salvation) all non Catholics ( including Christians ) need to enter the Catholic Church formally for salvation and there are no exceptions ?)
◦“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.) This has been repeated throughout the centuries so to me and the Catholic Church it is quite clear that it is really that beautiful, Holy and simple. After all a command is a command. Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are completely irrelevant to teaching this truth as commanded by Jesus to all Catholics and non Catholics alike.(Yes .Agreed) In my humble opinion there would be no difference in 2015 or in any year there is contact with any living person that Father Feeney, your and my teaching and belief would be identical in what we tell them is necessary for Salvation. Even the centuries of teaching by the church on such things such as they do not know or if they are ignorant fall by the wayside if we do and say what we are commanded. If the Church teaches to all that this is the formula (Lionel: Yes. This is also the teaching of Vatican Council II (AG 7). Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church.
Thank you for your quick response. The good Monsignor truly does believe that Vatican Council II is not a break with past councils or past centuries on Church teaching that there is No salvation Outside the Catholic Church and all must be baptized with water. (Lionel: Could you ask him if he believes Vatican Council II affirms the ' rigorist interpretation' of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Feeneyite version?) He did say that a syllabus would be in order to correct , denounce or explain as the case may be the era of VCII. (Lionel: Would the Syllabus have to say that LG 16,LG 8,UR 3,NA 2 etc are not exceptions to the strict interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus?) There is much confusion and lack of clarity in understanding and faithful catechesis.(Lionel : Would the FSSP Monsignor say that according to Vatican Council II (AG 7- all need faith and baptism for salvation) all non Catholics ( including Christians ) need to enter the Catholic Church formally for salvation and there are no exceptions ?)
◦“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.) This has been repeated throughout the centuries so to me and the Catholic Church it is quite clear that it is really that beautiful, Holy and simple. After all a command is a command. Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance are completely irrelevant to teaching this truth as commanded by Jesus to all Catholics and non Catholics alike.(Yes .Agreed) In my humble opinion there would be no difference in 2015 or in any year there is contact with any living person that Father Feeney, your and my teaching and belief would be identical in what we tell them is necessary for Salvation. Even the centuries of teaching by the church on such things such as they do not know or if they are ignorant fall by the wayside if we do and say what we are commanded. If the Church teaches to all that this is the formula (Lionel: Yes. This is also the teaching of Vatican Council II (AG 7). Vatican Council II does not contradict the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church.
Presently the SSPX and the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Fr.Leonard Feeney's communities in the USA, assume there are exceptions in Vatican Council II to the dogma. For them then LG 16,LG 8,UR 3 etc would be referring to visible and known cases in 2015 for them to become exceptions.)
the excuse that someone does not know becomes less and less likely in our teaching mission and expectations for conversion to the Catholic faith. If they do not accept what the church teaches they cannot say that they do not know but only that they disagree and will not accept the formula for salvation for which they are accountable before God. (Lionel: Another problem today is that Vatican Council II is being interpreted with the Marchetti Inference ( the dead are visible in 2015) and this is assumed to be the 'Church's teaching'.)
Having said that where we disagree is as follows. Father Feeney most assuredly was a staunch defender of the faith and taught salvation exactly and accurately in regards to No Salvation outside the Catholic Church and baptism by water.(Lionel : He was correct doctrinally: there was no known or unknown salvation outside the Catholic Church) Where he made serious mistakes were in lack of obedience in not going to Rome as demanded of him and denying the Church teaching on the possibilities of Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance.(Lionel: The Holy Office and the Archbishop of Boston were in heresy for assuming there was known salvation outside the Church and so the dogma was contradicted.) Unlike you Lionel, he even accepted their possibilities which you have not addressed. (Lionel: They are possibilities for me, followed by the baptism of water. I do not have a problem with the baptism of desire. Since it is not relevant or an exception to the dogma.They being invisible,these cases can be accepted in faith, hypothetically) I believe that Father Feeney is a Saint simply because the Church did not show and demonstrate this great love, charity and humility that we hear of so often. The Church in retrospect on so important could have come to him. The excommunication was lifted without a recant when the Church clearly knew his stance on the issues in question. We say in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass: "your servant Pope______" Lionel, I believe that
you are absolutely correct when you say that we know of no one while they are alive on this earth that can be exempt from being taught that there is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and that they must have baptism by water. period; no exceptions.(Lionel: Agreed) Correct me if I am wrong, while we totally agree on this I feel that you ironically project this mindset to THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ( Lionel: I have to keep saying that these persons are dead and so so cannot be exceptions. It is only in this sense do I mean it ) where souls are then out of the realm of earthly influence and are judged by God in his infinite mercy, love and justice in ways that you should dare not speculate or even have an opinion. (Lionel: I speak in a general way. I am not referring to personal cases.) Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and invincible Ignorance along with the possibilities of a sincere heart, searching and yearning for God, righteous life and perfect contrition are simply the Church's teaching of placing these favorable possible conditions that someone may possess before God for judgement.(Yes) We totally agree that these wonderful possibilities are not ours to offer but simply to embrace as Church teaching. The catechumen who dies before receiving communion is lovingly buried a Catholic and whose soul is before God for judgement. Many catechumens have been proclaimed Saints and it is not for anyone speculate on how they were welcomed by God into eternity.(Lionel: We agree)
We disagree on so little.(Lionel: I think we agree in general)
the excuse that someone does not know becomes less and less likely in our teaching mission and expectations for conversion to the Catholic faith. If they do not accept what the church teaches they cannot say that they do not know but only that they disagree and will not accept the formula for salvation for which they are accountable before God. (Lionel: Another problem today is that Vatican Council II is being interpreted with the Marchetti Inference ( the dead are visible in 2015) and this is assumed to be the 'Church's teaching'.)
Having said that where we disagree is as follows. Father Feeney most assuredly was a staunch defender of the faith and taught salvation exactly and accurately in regards to No Salvation outside the Catholic Church and baptism by water.(Lionel : He was correct doctrinally: there was no known or unknown salvation outside the Catholic Church) Where he made serious mistakes were in lack of obedience in not going to Rome as demanded of him and denying the Church teaching on the possibilities of Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance.(Lionel: The Holy Office and the Archbishop of Boston were in heresy for assuming there was known salvation outside the Church and so the dogma was contradicted.) Unlike you Lionel, he even accepted their possibilities which you have not addressed. (Lionel: They are possibilities for me, followed by the baptism of water. I do not have a problem with the baptism of desire. Since it is not relevant or an exception to the dogma.They being invisible,these cases can be accepted in faith, hypothetically) I believe that Father Feeney is a Saint simply because the Church did not show and demonstrate this great love, charity and humility that we hear of so often. The Church in retrospect on so important could have come to him. The excommunication was lifted without a recant when the Church clearly knew his stance on the issues in question. We say in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass: "your servant Pope______" Lionel, I believe that
you are absolutely correct when you say that we know of no one while they are alive on this earth that can be exempt from being taught that there is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church and that they must have baptism by water. period; no exceptions.(Lionel: Agreed) Correct me if I am wrong, while we totally agree on this I feel that you ironically project this mindset to THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ( Lionel: I have to keep saying that these persons are dead and so so cannot be exceptions. It is only in this sense do I mean it ) where souls are then out of the realm of earthly influence and are judged by God in his infinite mercy, love and justice in ways that you should dare not speculate or even have an opinion. (Lionel: I speak in a general way. I am not referring to personal cases.) Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire and invincible Ignorance along with the possibilities of a sincere heart, searching and yearning for God, righteous life and perfect contrition are simply the Church's teaching of placing these favorable possible conditions that someone may possess before God for judgement.(Yes) We totally agree that these wonderful possibilities are not ours to offer but simply to embrace as Church teaching. The catechumen who dies before receiving communion is lovingly buried a Catholic and whose soul is before God for judgement. Many catechumens have been proclaimed Saints and it is not for anyone speculate on how they were welcomed by God into eternity.(Lionel: We agree)
We disagree on so little.(Lionel: I think we agree in general)
-Lionel Andrades
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