Saturday, February 21, 2015

We do not know of any soul who has been saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance in 2015

 Pray
because you don’t know by name of any particular soul (I mean, no-one has returned from the dead to give you the heads-up)
Lionel:
We do not know of any soul who has been saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance in 2015.So there are no known exceptions in the present times to the dogmatic teaching. All need faith and baptism (Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II ) for salvation. All need to be formal members of the Catholic Church to go to Heaven(Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441).So if we are aware that there are no known exceptions in the present times, then the Catholic Church teaches, before and after Vatican Council II, has not changed. It is : all Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and others need to convert formally, in the Catholic Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.
_______________________________
 Pray for Deacon Nick Donnelly
who has benefitted from God’s mercy in this way, you suggest that this class of persons does not “explicitly” exist.
Lionel:
It is possibile that this class of people exist and are known to God.However they are not known to us. So this class of people must not be considered exceptions to the dogma.
We can accept being saved in invincible ignorance. However we cannot infer that these cases are defacto, known explicitly in 2015. Then we must not conclude that these invisible for us cases are exceptions to the dogma.
________________________
Well, yes it does, Lumen Gentium 16 (which you cite) clearly says so: men who are in ignorance of the Gospel through no fault of their own but “attempt to put into practice the recognition of [God’s] will that they have reached through the dictate of conscience….. can attain everlasting salvation”.
Lionel:
Yes they can attain salvation with certain conditions and they would be possibilities for us and known- cases only for God.For us LG 16 is acceptable as a hypothetical case. A hypothetical case cannot be an explicit exception in 2015.So LG 16 is not an exception to AG 7 which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.
_____________________
It would be ridiculous for the Church to describe a category of persons and then for no-one to fit into that category.
Lionel:
The Church mentions this category of people. Before 1949 it did not say that this category of people were personally and explicitly known to us.It did not say that they were known to us  for them to be exceptions to all needing the baptism of water in the present times(2015), for salvation.
______________________________

Baptism is the normal way into the Church
Lionel:
Yes baptism is the normal way into the Church since God has bound salvation to the Sacraments . This is the de fide teaching before and after Vatcan Council II.
_____________________________
but God is not bound by the sacraments
 Lionel:
This error in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 comes from the factual mistake made in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
________________________________
and indeed the Church has always recognised, for example, the baptism of desire of catechumens and of course the baptism of blood referred to in this blogpost.
Lionel:
Yes and before 1949 the Church has not stated that these cases are personally known to us to be exceptions to the dogma.Mystici Corporis, the Council of Trent etc  only mention these cases. They do not state that they are exceptions to the dogma or that they are are personally known to us in the present times. 
-Lionel Andrades
 
 
 
That The Bones You Have Crushed May Thrill

No comments: