Please reconcile your thinking on the statements of yours below which are contradictory. We can move forward for you are ABSOLUTELY correct in what almost all in the Catholic Church have done to our faith with their evil distortion of Baptism of Desire, Baptism of Blood and Invincible Ignorance as the Church DEMANDS they be understood. If you and I were walking and talking together to Catholics and non Catholics they would ALL be taught without exception that they must enter, return or stay in the Catholic Church and be baptized with water in order to be saved . This command by Jesus and the Church is irrevocable and unchangeable. Having said that your sentences below MUST be explained for they are in opposition to each other...... and yet you hold both positions.
You said:
I accept being saved with invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. For me they are possibilities known only to God and will ALWAYS be followed with the baptism of water ( This position is False )
You said:
I accept being saved with invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. For me they are possibilities known only to God and will ALWAYS be followed with the baptism of water ( This position is False )
Lionel:
Why ? The dogma says all need the baptism of water for salvation. Jesus says the same in John 3:5. While you do not know of any exceptions.
and then you turn around and contradict this sentence above when you say:
If God chooses to save a person without the Sacraments it would be known only to God and so would not be an explicit exception to the dogma.( of course they are not an exception to the dogma but you cannot decree that God himself must baptize with water)
and then you turn around and contradict this sentence above when you say:
If God chooses to save a person without the Sacraments it would be known only to God and so would not be an explicit exception to the dogma.( of course they are not an exception to the dogma but you cannot decree that God himself must baptize with water)
Lionel:
The experiences of the saints confirm the dogmatic teaching.St. Francis Xavier mentions persons who returned back to the earth after being physically dead, only to be baptised with water.So this is the way God has chosen for all to be saved- the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.
and you also agree with Father Faber when he said:"We do not limit the far reaching excesses of His mercy"( but you are telling Father Faber that you, Lionel does limit God's mercies to water only)
and you also agree with Father Faber when he said:"We do not limit the far reaching excesses of His mercy"( but you are telling Father Faber that you, Lionel does limit God's mercies to water only)
Lionel:
Fr.Faber did not use the Marchetti error. He did not say that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are exceptions to exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.Fr.Frederick Faber held the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
You can not have it both ways. This always been your one and only misunderstanding which has distorted your position.
You can not have it both ways. This always been your one and only misunderstanding which has distorted your position.
Lionel:
For me all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation and there are no exceptions. This is the teaching of Vatican Council II (AG 7) when not interpreted with the irrational inference. This is traditional extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
What should be said by you is that God has bound Salvation to the Sacraments of the Catholic Church (Agreed!) and this is an absolute certainty and is the teaching mission of the Church without exception..... (Yes!) but as you mention correctly above you must confirm that God may grant salvation without the sacraments (God could since God is God. However the Holy Spirit teaches us that there is no salvation outside the Church.The Sacraments in the Church are necessary for salvation. It was because Cardinal Marchetti thought there was salvation outside the Church, this has become a confusing issue for many Catholics) and without any conditions placed on God.(The dogma and Vatican Council II say there are conditions) You can not place limits on God's far reaching unknown mercies which are beyond our comprehension. You cannot tell God that he MUST baptize with water in Heaven.( The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says the Church does not know of any means to eternal beatutude other than the baptism of water)
What should be said by you is that God has bound Salvation to the Sacraments of the Catholic Church (Agreed!) and this is an absolute certainty and is the teaching mission of the Church without exception..... (Yes!) but as you mention correctly above you must confirm that God may grant salvation without the sacraments (God could since God is God. However the Holy Spirit teaches us that there is no salvation outside the Church.The Sacraments in the Church are necessary for salvation. It was because Cardinal Marchetti thought there was salvation outside the Church, this has become a confusing issue for many Catholics) and without any conditions placed on God.(The dogma and Vatican Council II say there are conditions) You can not place limits on God's far reaching unknown mercies which are beyond our comprehension. You cannot tell God that he MUST baptize with water in Heaven.( The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says the Church does not know of any means to eternal beatutude other than the baptism of water)
God is not bound to the Sacraments..( The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says the Church does not know of any means to eternal beatutude other than the baptism of water so God has bound salvation to Sacramental baptism.) His mercies are unknown to us AND you can not dictate to God how and in what manner that He uses his mercies to grant salvation. God absolutely did bind us and the Catholic Church as Father Feeney taught that all must enter, return or stay within the Church. (Agreed) We must do this and once a person dies they are completely and totally in the hands of God where you can not and must not speculate or dictate how God applies his mercies. (The Church tells us in general how God applies his mercy. If there is some one who is saved without the baptism of water you and I would not know about it. )
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