Thursday, December 4, 2014

So the Church is saying that Patriarch Bartolomew needs to enter the Church to avoid Hell. This is a magisterial teaching.

Lynda
The doctrine is certain, not hypothetical.
Lionel:
Baptism of desire is a doctrine of the Catholic Church.It refers to a hypothetical case.
This doctrine does not say that it is an exception to Tradition. It was made an exception in 1949.
Can you quote any pope or saint before 1949 who said that these cases are visible to us and so are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma ? There is no precedent and if there was he would be making an objective mistake.
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Francis bows to Patriarch BartholomewLynda:
As for whether or not any specific person has been saved, that we cannot generally know, except where it has been revealed by God to the Church that he is a saint, or there is no other possibility (e.g., baptised infant, incapable of personal sin).
Lionel:
Yes we can be sure the saints are in Heaven since the Church says so.
The Church also says that all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation (Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441). So the Church is saying that Patriarch Bartolomew needs to enter the Church to avoid Hell. This is a magisterial teaching.
The Church also says that all need ‘faith and baptism’ for salvation, Patriarch Bartolomew does not have Catholic Faith, which includes the faith and moral teachings of the Church( according to Tradition).The Orthodox Church does not accept the papacy. Neither do they accept the Catholic Sacraments through which God saves. According to the Magisterium after Vatican Council II, Patriarch Bartolomew is oriented to Hell.
He is not in invincible ignorance and cannot give himself the baptism of desire.
According to the Catholic Magisterium (Cantate Dominio 1441, Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14) etc most people are on the way to Hell since they die without faith and baptism.
Jesus has said that the way to Hell is large and most people take it. So enter through the narrow gate. The Church is the narrow gate.Living the Gospel teachings as interpreted by the Catholic Church is the narrow gate.
Jesus has said that those who do not believe will be condemned. Most people die as unbelievers.
Jesus mentioned the necessity of the baptism of water for salvation. Most people die without the baptism of water.
In Italy for instance, Jews. Muslims and other non Catholics do not have ‘faith and baptism’ (AG 7) and they know about the Catholic Church and yet do not enter (LG 14).So they are oriented to Hell according to the traditional magisterium of the Catholic Church. Similarly Protestansts, Orthodox Christians, Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses etc are also outside the Church .Magisterial documents indicate that they are all on the way to Hell.
-Lionel Andrades

Don't Write that Check

Jesuit priests Wolanin,Tiso, Lobo, Morali, Mokrani, Fuss, Muozj, Bianchini and others are teaching Missiology at the Gregorian Univesity,Rome based on apparition theology

The Jesuit priests Wolanin,Tiso, Lobo, Morali, Mokrani, Fuss, Muozj, Bianchini and others are teaching Missiology at the Gregorian University, Rome based on apparition theology approved by Cardinal Gerhard Muller who  visited this Jesuit  university and did not issue any criticism.
 
These Jesuit professors assume that Fr.Leonard Feeney was wrong.Since the deceased now saved with the baptism of desire etc,  who are in Heaven are visible on earth !!. Since they are visible on earth to them, these cases are explicit exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney. The dead are visible!. This is the dead- man- walking theory approved in the Department of Missiology of this pontifical university now meeting all the standards set by the political left.
So for these Catholic priest-professors, who begin a new semester in the Missiology Department, the deceased are visible to us humans and so there is salvation outside the Church.This is the apparition theology which they accept. Theology based on visions.
Apparition theology has come to us from  Archbishop Richard Cushing and the Jesuits of Boston in the 1940's.
This is the theology approved by Cardinal Gerhard Muller. He interprets Vatican Council II and extra ecclesiam nulla salus using apparition theology.The SSPX and the Franciscans of the Immaculate have also to affirm the same error.
It may be mentioned that apparition theology approved by Cardinal Muller has nothing to do with the apparitions of Medugorje. The cardinal recently discouraged the Medugorje seers from praying in some Italian dioceses.

The bishops of those dioceses did not agree.
The  prayer meeting went ahead.The bishops also participated.
 
La brochure del Dipartimento di Teologia delle ReligioniCardinal Muller , the Prefect of the Congregation for the
 Doctrine of the Faith has also approved the new Department  of the Theology of Religions, whose theology contradicts the CDF Notification on Fr.Jacques Dupuis (2001) during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II.
The CDF Prefect approves this heretical department yet places restrictions on the Medugorje seers.
The theology of the Department of the Theology of Religions is based on apparition theology. This was the theology used by Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J, former professor of the Gregorian University and present Secretary of the CDF. As President of the International Theological Commission he used apparition theology in two theological papers of the ITC, Christianity and the World Religions and The Hope of Salvation of Infants  who die without baptism. Apparition theology is based on an irrationality ( being able to see the dead on earth who are exceptions to Tradition) was approved by Pope Benedict XVI.
Without this  dead man walking and visible theology, the Missiology  Department would be as traditional on Catholic mission, as  the Jesuit  St.Francis Xavier.
-Lionel Andrades 
 

This error would also be Patriarch Bartolomew's understanding of Vatican Council II, as he thinks Catholics accept it

QuoVadisPetre
Lionel, you’re plain wrong about BOD being an exception to EENS.
 
Lionel:
I am not saying it is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus (EENS).
1.I do not know of any any exception in 2014.
2.I do not know of any magisterial document before 1949 which says it is an exception.
3.I do not know of any magisterial document before 1949 which says that the baptism of desire cases are visible to us.
4.I accept the baptism of desire as a theoretical possibility. It is hypothethical for me and known only to God. So I do not reject it. For me these hypothetical cases will always be followed by the baptism of water, if God wants it.
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QuoVadisPetre
The problem is that you define your own Magisterium, in opposition to the Fathers, Popes, and Doctors of the Church.
Lionel:
I support the magisterium before 1949 which was traditional. I reject the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 as 1) contradicting the Magisterium before 1949 and also Vatican Council II (AG 7) and 2) which irrationally assumes that those who are saved with the baptism of desire are explicit exceptions to Tradition on salvation. This is a new doctrine and it is irrational.The magisterium contradicts itself here. This can be seen very clearly in CCC 1257.
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QuoVadisPetre
 
Trent explicitly said in fact or in desire, and every theologian since the Council of Trent believed it so.
Lionel:
The Council of Trent mentioned the baptism of desire. This is fine.Trent did not say that these cases were visible to us or an explicit exception to the dogma.This was the mistake made by the American theologians in Boston in the 1940's.
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QuoVadisPetre
Only the late Fr. Feeney dared to supposedly “improve on the Fathers,” Popes, and theologians.
Lionel:
He affirmed the dogma according to the Church Councils which did not mention the baptism of desire as an exception. No Church document before 1949 says that the baptism of desire is visible to us or an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Fr.Leonard Feeney accepted the possibility of a catechumen having the baptism of desire and being justified .This theoretical case would be saved once God gave the grace of  the baptism of water.
So the St.Benedict Centers, the communities of Fr.Leonard Feeney in the USA do not deny the baptism of desire. They assume that these hypothethical cases , would also have the baptism of water for salvation.
Their position is in agreement with the dogma on salvation and Vatican Council II (AG 7).
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QuoVadisPetre
And BOD isn’t theoretical. According to the 1917 CIC, catechumens are considered baptized if they die without baptism through no fault of their own.
Lionel:
Baptism of desire (BOD) is always theoretical for us! It can only be known and visible to God.
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QuoVadisPetre
According to the 1917 CIC, catechumens are considered baptized if they die without baptism through no fault of their own.
Lionel:
True and this case is hypothetical. It is not of someone personally known to us.
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Lionel.
So the SSPX here has mistaken hypothethical cases as being known in the present life.They have picked up the mistake of the Letter of the Holy Office.The error was made by Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX bishops uncritically followed the error. See these links, would you agree with me ?
http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/feeneyism/three_baptisms.htm

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Lionel:
This error would also be Patriarch Bartolomew's understanding of Vatican Council II, as he thinks Catholics accept it.
If it is realized that LG 16 ( invincible ignorance) etc are hypothetical for us and so do not contradict the Syllabus of Errors and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Patriarch Bartolomew would discover that for Catholics, Vatican Council assumes that he is on the way to Hell. Since there would be nothing in the Council II to contradict Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441 which says 'schismatics' are oriented to 'the fires of Hell'.
It would also mean that there is no known salvation outside the Catholic Church. No one can be saved without 'faith and baptism'. This would mean that there are no known exceptions to the Catholic doctrine on the Social Reign of Jesus Christ over all political instituions.
There  would also be no known exception to traditional ecumenism and ecclesiology.
-Lionel Andrades
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