Sunday, November 30, 2014

Proclamation


When I say all non Catholics need to enter the Catholic Church and there are no exceptions in 2014 I am affirming the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II.This is a de fide teaching of the Church which comes from Jesus' words(John 3: 5, MK.16:16). It is repeated in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7).
It is contradicted in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 when it was inferred that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are visible to us and so are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
This error is repeated in the interpretation of Vatican Council II when it is mistakenly assumed that Lumen Gentium 16 ( invincible ignorance) is an exception to the traditional 'rigorist' interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney ( See Wikipedia- extra ecclesiam nulla salus / Fr.Leonard Feeney).Though the actual text of Vatican Council II does not make this factual error.However this is the common inference used.
Since I do not make this objective error I can proclaim the Catholic Faith like the saints and popes before Vatican Council II and - be in agreement with Vatican Council II, which is made much of by the leftist lobby using the irrational premise, the visible-dead theory.
So for me all Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Protestants and Orthodox Christians need to enter the Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell since there is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known over centuries. Also Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14 in orthodox passages of the Council, affirm the dogma as interpreted by the Church Councils, saints,Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St. Benedict Center ( mentioned in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949).
So the leaders of the 'great religions' were on the way to Hell without Catholic faith and the baptism of water. According to my Catholic beliefs, the leaders of Islam for example, did not have 'faith and baptism'(AG 7). Also they knew about the Catholic Church but did not enter and so are lost (Lumen Gentium 14).
Similarly the Jewish leaders of today are informed and educated. They will be lost to the fires of Hell ('the devouring fire' mentioned by the Jewish Prophet Isaiah) unless they convert into the Church.
So when I proclaim that any particular leader of a religion is on the way to Hell, or is already there,
I base this observation on the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II inspired by the Holy  Spirit. It is not a personal opinion independent from the Catholic Church. For me it is thinking with the Church, it is being in step with the Church, which does not change its doctrines. This has been the teaching of the magisterium in magisterial texts.
How individual popes and cardinals interpret it may not be the same as me.They differ amongst themselves.However I can cite references for my views in Vatican Council II and traditional documents. I also do not interpret Vatican Council II with an irrational inference as do the popes, cardinals, bishops etc.
-Lionel Andrades

Is it logical to say that all salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II is an exception to the Syllabus of Errors? It is irrational for me

Lynda
CraigV, You aren’t the first person to explain this to Mr Andradas, and I doubt you’ll be the last, given his extraordinary tenacity in stating and restating his not very logical (at least not logically expressed) thesis on Catholic blogs!

Lionel:
What is my logical thesis ?
Dogmas and doctrines do not change for you. Then how can the dogma EENS change and be acceptable to you. I do not expect an answer. I have asked you this quite a few times.
Is it logical to say that there are known exceptions to EENS?
Is it logical to say that all salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II is an exception to the Syllabus of Errors?
It is irrational for me and logical for you. So you criticize Vatican Council II.
_____________________________

Lynda

Mr Andrades, you sure know how to persevere, but it’s probably time to take a break from it, at least on this blog. God bless you.
Lionel:
I have to persevere since informed Catholics, who know aspects of the Catholic Faith better that me, are using an irrationality in the interpretation of Vatican Council II and they do not know the source of their modernism. They consider this modernism dogmatic ,traditional etc.
Craig seems to be have an insight into this and Bertho has picked it up very well. I could almost say that he understands it well.
When they begin to write on this subject I can take a break from the blogs.
-Lionel Andrades

http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/humanum/#comments

If a soul is outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church, then it must enter Her one way or the other before death, or it’s lost

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For IF that soul is saved, then it was indeed Catholic before death. Not partially, but fully inside the Church. Whether we see it or not.

Criag:

Lionel,
This has been driving me nuts for a few weeks and I haven’t said anything. So against my better judgment, I’m going to go ahead and say something.
Look man, when the Church pronounces a dogma, it’s true, period. Whether or not we can scientifically measure it, see it, taste it, etc. It’s simply true.
And it is a dogmatic Truth that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Full stop. Whether we see it or not, it’s true. Before a soul leaves the body, if it’s not placed within the Catholic Church, it is not saved.
Lionel:
Agreed 100 %

Criag:

Whether or not we see it joined to the Church is irrelevant. If it is, it can be saved, if it’s not, it can’t be saved.

Lionel:
Agreed 100%
I dont have to quote you the dogma-text since we are in agreeement.

Criag:

Your whole lengthy tomes on “since we can’t see it, EENS is still true.”

Lionel:
The “since we can’t see it” comments refer to the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance.
See the SSPX USA post on Feeneyism.
They affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and without a bat of the eye also say that the baptism of desire etc are exceptions.It makes sense for them.
Then I have to come in with…. how can the baptism of desire etc be an exception to the dogma. This is elementary, man. If there are no visible exceptions on earth, how can ‘the exception’ be an exception? It is here where I have to bring in the “since we can’t see it” reminder. It is not with EENS, as you thought. It is only when someone says there are exceptions to EENS.

And that someone happens to be the Holy Office 1949 along with the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits who were also active at Vatican Councll II. So it is a very serious thing. You have the average Catholic affirming an irrationality and heresy and believing it is a de fide teaching.EENS is a de fide teaching. Visible baptism of desire is not. Invisible for us baptism of desire is acceptable.

_______________________________

Criag:

I’m sorry man, that statement makes no sense. I’m sorry to have to finally break it to you, but it just doesn’t make any logical sense. Your posts are distracting man. Please.

Lionel:
Obviously it would not make sense.
Conversely from my point of view it does not make sense when you assume that all salvation in Heaven mentioned in Vatican Council II is a break with EENS.
For me this is irrational.
Then I have to begin explaining….LG 16 refers to a hypothetical case. Please do not consider an exception to the dogma…etc, etc.

Criag:

If a soul is outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church, then it must enter Her one way or the other before death, or it’s lost.

Lionel:
Yes and of course and this has nothing to do with EENS. Every one in 2014 needs to formally convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.

Criag:

Can the Good Lord bring that soul in Himself in ways we can’t see in the moments before death? He sure can.

Lionel:
Sure he can in this hypothethical case.Of course he can! And for me he could also bring this person to Heaven with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
And of course this person is only a theoretical case, a possibility known only to God. So he will not be an exception to the traditional interpretation of the dogma according to the Church Councils.
Since if you infer this is an exception or relevant to the dogma….(you know the rest!).
_____________________________________

Criag:

Whether or not we see it is irrelevant.

Lionel:
Relevant to what ?
Are you saying it is not relevant to the interpretation of EENS according to Fr.Leonard Feeney, the popes and saints?
Is it relevant to Vatican Council II ? Does Vatican Council II contradict St.Robert Bellarmine’s understanding of EENS? Or St.Maximillian Kolbe?
______________________________

Criag:

It remains a theoretical possibility…and one that doesn’t touch upon EENS.


Lionel:
Agreed 100%
Would you say the SSPX is wrong here ? A theoretical possibility ( baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance) is considered a defacto exception to the dogma EENS.The SSPX USA is following the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
_______________________________________

Criag:

For IF that soul is saved, then it was indeed Catholic before death. Not partially, but fully inside the Church. Whether we see it or not.

Lionel:
Yes. And being a theoretical possibility, it is not, as you say, relevant to EENS.
Also after death, there are cases of persons who return to life only to be baptized and they return to the supernatural life. This is the experience of Catholic saints including St. Francis Xavier.
So all who are in Heaven are Catholics. There are only Catholics in Heaven.
___________________________________

Criag:

Maybe Our Lord saves a lot this way, maybe none. We can’t know this side or the Pearly Gates.

Lionel:
Yes it is irrelevant to EENS.
_____________________________________

Criag:

We simply have to work toward the objective of winning souls for Christ by bringing them into His One Holy Catholic Church…for outside of Her, there is NO salvation. Full stop

Lionel:
Agreed!
-Lionel Andrades


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