Wednesday, September 3, 2014

There are no visible exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Catholic Church

James:
1, The Balamand Declaration because of its errors was NOT accepted by Cardinal Ratzinger and CDF nor was there any overall approval for Balamand by Pope Benedict XVI.
Lionel:
I understand. This is what was said at that time.The Declaration is now available on the website of the Vatican's International Theological Commission. It is approved also on the websites of the USCCB and the Conference of Catholic Bishops of England and Wales.
 
James:
2. there is no error in CCC #1257 but traditional teaching.
3, You totally distort Magisterial doctrine (allowing for the salvation of non-Catholics and the unbaptized) by claiming any such saved have to be personally known and physically visible”! Consequently, since such can not be known, there can be no exceptions to “nullus salus extra Ecclesiam:.
 
Lionel:
I would agree with you when you say that there can be no exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.(However below you suggest that there are exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Church)
Yet CCC 1258-1260 says there are substitutes for the baptism of water.
There are some persons in Rome for example in 2014 who do not need the baptism of water? Who are they? Where are the substitutes on earth?
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
With reference to the Necessity of Baptism ,God ' is not bound by his sacraments.'?.
'is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament', why is this mentioned ? Do we know any such case on earth? Can we judge? Does this imply that these cases are visible in the flesh?.
So the Balamand Declaration says that there is no more an ecumenism of return.(N.30).Why which New revelation says there are known exceptions and where are these exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus, so that there is now known salvation among Protestants,d Orthodox Christians etc., The ITC theological papers say there is salvation outside the Church and so all do not need to convert into the Church. This is being taught at the Catholic universities and seminaries here in Rome.

James:
Your interpretation is absurd. No one living in this world can be identified by the Catholic Church as definitively saved or lost.
Lionel:
Agreed. No one.So how can the Catechism 1257 etc infer that there are exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Why was Fr.Leonard Feeney criticized on this point?Where are the exceptions to his literal interpretation of the dogma on salvation?
James:
The Church has no insight into whether any living individual has sufficiently corresponded with the graces necessary for salvation or will die in the state of grace.
Lionel:
Agreed.
James:
4. All the authentic Church documents are saying is that God gives grace to all to be saved (whether through the Sacraments or in an extraordinary way), but the salvation of anyone cannot be known with certainty while they are on pilgrimage in this world. It is only after death that the Church can officially declare one among the blessed.
Lionel:
If they were saying just this it would be fine.
But you know that Fr.Leonard Feeney is reported excommunicated for denying that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma.
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 referenced in the Catechism makes this point.It can be read in the text.No one has refuted it from the Magisterium.
The Catechism says there are exceptions. The baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are exceptions.(CCC 1258.60 etc)
The ITC says on its website that Lumen Gentium 16 ( invincible ignorance etc are exceptions to the literal interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney.It says that the old ecclesiology is not more there...
James:
5. Actually, the Catholic Church does not sanction “exceptions” to “No salvation outside the Church”.
Lionel:
It implies it .Since for centuries the traditional teaching was that every one needed to be a formal member of the Church for salvation.
It was Cardinal Cushing and the Jesuits who brought up the issue of 'exceptions'.Now the Catechism 1258-1260 says there are exceptions, substitutes, for the baptism of water.
How can these cases be exceptions( substututes) to every one needing to be a formal member of the Catholic Church for salvation? These cases do not exist in our reality on earth. So how can they be exceptions for every one needing to formally enter the Churchin Rome, for example, in 2014?
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to the popes and saints had always meant formal entry into the Church.
If you say no, fine , then I would ask you to show me the exception, the person saved without formal entry into the Church.
James:
It carefully explains that the word “exception” refers to those who are saved but have not had formal membership in the Church as Catholics.
 
Lionel:
It usually infers it but does not directly use the word exception.
James:
They do not represent “exceptions” to “No salvation Outside the Church” ! The truth is that any non-Catholic who is saved is saved because of their imperfect communion with the Catholic Church (being linked or joined to the Church by faith and baptism and cooperating with graces given through the Church).
Lionel:
This is accepted.If you just leave at this- it is acceptable.However when they assume that these cases are visible ( they would have to be visible to be exceptions) and imply that they are exceptions to all needing to be formal members of the Curch, this becomes irrational and non traditional.
James:
Similarly, the unbaptized who are also called to salvation, are related to the Church, can correspond with the graces that come to them unknowingly through the Church, and can be saved. The point to be stressed is that the cooperation by non-Catholics and non-Christians with the graces that come to them through the Catholic Church means they are saved by the Catholic Church. In a mysterious sense such persons of good will are invisibly within the Church.
Lionel:
Yes. Fine, as long as you do not imply that these cases are exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Church for salvation.Since you do not know any one who formally does not need to enter the Catholic Church.
Also theologically the baptism of water and being saved in invincible ignorance can be followed by the baptism of water in the manner known only to God.
So implicit for us baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance is acceptable.One can affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ( according to Fr.Leonard Feeney9 along with hypothtical, implicit for us baptism of desire etc.
James:
The traditional axiom thus holds: there is no Salvation Outside the Church. “Outside the Church” was never understood as confined to those with formal membership as Catholics –
Lionel:
Yes it was understood to mean formal entry. No pope or Council has mentioned any exceptions or names the baptism of desire etc as an exception.This has come from Cardinal Cushing.
James:
since “All men are called to Catholic Unity
Lionel:
Yes in potential.In potential salvation is open to all. In reality they need to convert into the Church for salvation.(Dominus Iesus 20, CCC 1257,846, Vatican Council II ( Ad Gentes 7) etc)
James:
and “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience- those too may achieve eternal salvation.”
Lionel:
They are known only to God and so are not visible exceptions to all needing to formally enter the Church.
-Lionel Andrades