Saturday, August 30, 2014

The Catechism and Vatican Council II are Feeneyite if you avoid the false premise

Feeneyism holds the literal and traditional interpretationa of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which the Catholic Church  has not retracted. Feeneyism rejects a visible to us baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance.So there are no defacto exceptions to all needing the baptism of water. It means in Heaven there are only Catholics .They are are there with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water and without mortal sin.
This is also the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II if you are careful to avoid the false premise i.e the premise of the dead being  visible in 2014 who are  exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Feeneyism:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. 
 With the False premise :
CCC 846.Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.( and these cases are known to us in 2014 and so contradict CCC 846 above)

With the False premise :
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church ( and are known to us in 2014 and so contradict CCC 846):

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience ( and who are visible and personally known to us in 2014)- those too may achieve eternal salvation.

With the False premise :
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him.( and who are visible and personally known to us in 2014)  


Without the false premise:
Eliminate the part in red type, the irrational premise, and CCC 847-848 do not contradict Feeneyism in the Catechism of the Catholic Church i.e 846.
________________________________________________________

Feeneyism
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.
False premise:
Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.( and we personally know in 2014 these persons who are saved as such in Heaven and so they are explicit exceptions to the above part of CCC 1257.They contradict Feeneyism.)
Feeneyism:
 (CCC 1257) The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." 
Feeneyism:
(CCC1257) God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism,...
False Premise:
(CCC1257) but he himself is not bound by his sacraments (since in 2014 thee are visible for us cases of non Catholics saved outside the Church i.e without the baptism of water and Catholic Faith)
False Premise:
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament ( and these cases are personally known to us in 2014 . They are not hypothetical cases and so they contradict Feeneyism in CCC 1257).
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.( and these cases are personally known to us in 2014 . They are not hypothetical cases and so they contradict Feeneyism in CCC 1257).
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.( and these cases are personally known to us in 2014 . They are not hypothetical cases and so they contradict Feeneyism in CCC 1257).
Without the False Premise:
1257.Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.(Reason tells us that these cases are invisible for us and known only to God)
CCC1257) but he himself is not bound by his sacraments (Reason tells us that these cases are invisible for us and known only to God)
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament (Reason tells us that these cases are invisible for us and known only to God)
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.(Reason tells us that these cases are invisible for us and known only to God)
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.(Reason tells us that these cases are invisible for us and known only to God)
 
Feeneyism
CCC 845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

_______________________________________________________________________

 
 
Vatican Council II 

Feeneyism:
Ad Gentes 7: Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the
Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. 
False premise:
Ad Gentes 7 : Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it.(these cases being kown to us in 2014)
False premise:
Ad Gentes 7 :Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6)(and these cases are known to us in 2014)...
Without the False premise:
Ad Gentes 7 : Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it.(Reason tells us that these cases are known only to God and so this passage is not an exception to Feeneyism )
Without the false  premise:
 
Ad Gentes 7 :Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6)(Reason tells us that these cases are known only to God and so this passage is not an exception to Feeneyism ).
 
Similarly Lumen Gentium 8 and 16, Unitatis Redintigratio 3, Nostra Aetate 2 etc are not exceptions to Feeneyism.-Lionel Andrades

Yemen: Woman burned to death by brother for converting to Christianity

By on Aug 29, 2014 

Nazeera-receiving-hospital-treatment-after-fire-attack.-Morning-Star-News-via-SaeedMuhammad commanded: “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him” (Bukhari 9.84.57). This is still the position of all the schools of Islamic jurisprudence, both Sunni and Shi’ite. Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the most renowned and prominent Muslim cleric in the world, has stated: “The Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished, yet they differ as to determining the kind of punishment to be inflicted upon them. The majority of them, including the four main schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali) as well as the other four schools of jurisprudence (the four Shiite schools of Az-Zaidiyyah, Al-Ithna-`ashriyyah, Al-Ja`fariyyah, and Az-Zaheriyyah) agree that apostates must be executed.” There is only disagreement over whether the law applies only to men, or to women also – some authorities hold that apostate women should not be killed, but only imprisoned in their houses until death.
Yet in the West, Islamic apologists blandly assert that Islam has no death penalty for apostasy, and that’s that: human rights organizations and Western governments do nothing for these threatened people.
“Woman in Yemen Burned to Death for Her Faith,” Morning Star News, August 29, 2014:
ISTANBUL (Morning Star News) – On the morning of June 9 in southern Yemen, Saeed woke to the sound of screaming. He shot out of bed, pushed panicked family members aside and saw his wife stumbling out of their kitchen, engulfed in flames.
His wife, Nazeera, had been preparing breakfast at about 9 a.m. when she poured liquid from a cooking oil bottle into a hot pan. The liquid flashed, and the bottle exploded. While her four children watched, screaming, Nazeera was being burned alive.
“I rushed out of the room,” Saeed (full name undisclosed for security reasons) told Morning Star News, weeping. “I couldn’t even speak to ask her what happened. All I could think about was putting the fire out and then getting her to the hospital. But my 16-year-old son, he couldn’t stop himself and held on to her, hugging her while she was burning. He got hurt, and I had to pull him away from her.”
About two weeks later, Nazeera, 33, died as a result of her burns. When Saeed returned to his home in a village (undisclosed for security reasons) after her death, a relative told him the unthinkable – members of both his family and hers had taken the vegetable oil out of the bottle and replaced it with gasoline. Saeed knew the reason – many years ago, the two had become Christians and refused to return to Islam.
After living in hiding in Yemen for several months, Saeed was able to flee to the relative safety of another country, he told Morning Star News.
Before the attack, Saeed and his wife had already decided to flee their families and the 99 percent Muslim country on the Arabian Peninsula. They got their travel papers two days before the sabotaged bottle exploded.
Medical Care
After doctors said there was nothing more they could do for Nazeera, friends of the couple were able to secure a room in a hospital in Egypt for further treatment. Nazeera died that day, before they could go.
Saeed was with her when she died. Among her last words to him was not to worry and to take care of their children. Saeed left the hospital and took the two-hour trip back home. There a relative told him that one of his brothers and one of her brothers had conspired against them to punish them.
“I was told by one of our relatives that it was a set-up, and they replaced the cooking oil with petrol, which caught flames as soon as she poured it out,” he said.
When Saeed went to police for help, officers told him to bring witnesses who could testify about the alleged conspiracy to sabotage the cooking oil bottle. His children only saw the explosion and could not testify regarding sabotage, and Saeed’s relatives refused to incriminate the alleged conspirators, their own family members.
“No one will be a witness for us,” Saeed said. “And my family told me that if I was killed and cut into pieces, they wouldn’t do anything to help or be a witness on my side.”
Saeed buried his wife and tried to sell everything left in his home, but family members blocked his efforts. Initially his four children lived at his mother’s house after the attack, but he secretly took them to another country before relatives could take them from him.
His last image of home was his relatives descending on his house, he said.
“I lost the way to support myself and everything we had,” he said. “And when we were leaving, I was trying to sell things we had, but some of my family members stopped it so I wouldn’t get anything. Even the day I took the children to leave [the country], they attacked our house and divided our things among themselves. They destroyed the rest.”
A New Faith
Saeed, 45, was born into a Muslim family in a small village in south Yemen that he would not identify for security reasons.
As a high school Arabic teacher, Saeed read a lot of newspapers to incorporate current events into his classes. In 1997, he was reading an article about a member of the Yemeni Parliament doing something seen as a sin in Islam. Later he was struck by a columnist’s article about the incident urging forgiveness.
“A local journalist wrote an article saying, ‘Why don’t you forgive him like Essa [Jesus] said. If you forgive other people, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive other people, your Father will not forgive you,’” Saeed said. “I heard this verse and was amazed that God talks about forgiveness, and I wanted to know more about Him, but as you know, you can hardly find Bibles in Yemen. I waited, and in 2003, I heard one of my students talking about a Christian radio station that broadcasts for half an hour a day in the Yemeni dialect. That’s how I came to know about Jesus.”
Saeed married Nazeera in 1998. By 2003, when he began drifting from Islam to become a Christian, he had two sons and his wife was pregnant with their first daughter. All of them, including his wife, followed him in his newfound faith.
When people in his village started to notice a change in the way he acted, they started harassing him.
“I was also punished at work,” Saeed said. “In 2003, I was suspended for being a Christian from my work for a year, and then when I returned, instead of putting me back in my place as a secondary school teacher, I was demoted and placed in a primary school. Instead of working in a school about 100 meters away from my house, the new school where I taught was 5 kilometers [3 miles] away, which I had to walk to every day.”
At the primary school, things got worse. He was suspended once, he said, for refusing to donate 500 rials (US$2.40) that the school was collecting from every worker for Hamas, a Palestinian Islamic organization designated as a terrorist group by the United States and other nations.
In March he refused to give a donation at school to a charitable Islamic association affiliated with another terrorist group. A member of the charity accused Saeed of being an “infidel” and then encouraged another teacher to assault him. The teacher beat him in front of more than 1,000 students. Saeed did not fight back, he said.
Persecution from Nazeera’s family was no less severe. They essentially kidnapped her three times in three years in hopes of convincing her to leave “the infidel.”
“But she kept saying that she wanted to be with me, and that she believes in what I believe, and that no matter what, she won’t leave me and the children,” Saeed said.
At least one human rights group that advocates for persecuted Christians and a group of Christians assisting Saeed have confirmed the details of his ordeal. One religious freedom advocate said that while today’s headlines are full of stories about terrorist groups brutalizing Christian communities in the Middle East, the day-to-day life and death struggles of converts often go forgotten.
“Though clearly an extreme case of persecution, this incident illustrates the pressure converts are under,” said the advocate, who requested anonymity for security reasons.
The killing was “a huge tragedy,” he added. “That is not anything anyone should have to go though alone. It is the worst place to be.”
Defying common logic, Saeed said God allowed the atrocity to take place to “strengthen our faith and use us more in His Kingdom.”
“We ask people to pray for us, as we are all alone in this new place,” he said (Morning Star News has confirmed the country, undisclosed for security reasons). “Pray for my children, as now I am their mother and father and only friend. We need prayers for God’s strength and to give us strong faith. I want people outside to know that even if we get cut into pieces, we won’t leave Jesus Christ.”

It is common knowledge that we cannot see the dead who are in Heaven. CCC 1257-1260 infers that we can!

My PhotoFr.Martin Fox:
In answering the question, can a man be saved without baptism, first he cites Augustine:
On the contrary, Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification.

Lionel:
Here is the actual text from the Summa of St. Thomas Aquinas (Link provided by Fr.Martin Fox).
Objection 1: It seems that not all are bound to receive Baptism. For Christ did not narrow man's road to salvation. But before Christ's coming men could be saved without Baptism: therefore also after Christ's coming.
Objection 2: Further, Baptism seems to have been instituted principally as a remedy for original sin. Now, since a man who is baptized is without original sin, it seems that he cannot transmit it to his children. Therefore it seems that the children of those who have been baptized, should not themselves be baptized.
Objection 3: Further, Baptism is given in order that a man may, through grace, be cleansed from sin. But those who are sanctified in the womb, obtain this without Baptism. Therefore they are not bound to receive Baptism.
On the contrary, It is written (Jn. 3:5): "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Again it is stated in De Eccl. Dogm. xli, that "we believe the way of salvation to be open to those only who are baptized."
I answer that, Men are bound to that without which they cannot obtain salvation. Now it is manifest that no one can obtain salvation but through Christ; wherefore the Apostle says (Rom. 5:18): "As by the offense of one unto all men unto condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men unto justification of life." But for this end is Baptism conferred on a man, that being regenerated thereby, he may be incorporated in Christ, by becoming His member: wherefore it is written (Gal. 3:27): "As many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ." Consequently it is manifest that all are bound to be baptized: and that without Baptism there is no salvation for men.
Reply to Objection 1: At no time, not even before the coming of Christ, could men be saved unless they became members of Christ: because, as it is written (Acts 4:12), "there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved." But before Christ's coming, men were incorporated in Christ by faith in His future coming: of which faith circumcision was the "seal," as the Apostle calls it (Rom. 4:11): whereas before circumcision was instituted, men were incorporated in Christ by "faith alone," as Gregory says (Moral. iv), together with the offering of sacrifices, by means of which the Fathers of old made profession of their faith. Again, since Christ's coming, men are incorporated in Christ by faith; according to Eph. 3:17: "That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts." But faith in a thing already present is manifested by a sign different from that by which it was manifested when that thing was yet in the future: just as we use other parts of the verb, to signify the present, the past, and the future. Consequently although the sacrament itself of Baptism was not always necessary for salvation, yet faith, of which Baptism is the sacrament, was always necessary.
Reply to Objection 2: As we have stated in the FS, Q[81], A[3], ad 2, those who are baptized are renewed in spirit by Baptism, while their body remains subject to the oldness of sin, according to Rom. 8:10: "The body, indeed, is dead because of sin, but the spirit liveth because of justification." Wherefore Augustine (Contra Julian. vi) proves that "not everything that is in man is baptized." Now it is manifest that in carnal generation man does not beget in respect of his soul, but in respect of his body. Consequently the children of those who are baptized are born with original sin; wherefore they need to be baptized.
Reply to Objection 3: Those who are sanctified in the womb, receive indeed grace which cleanses them from original sin, but they do not therefore receive the character, by which they are conformed to Christ. Consequently, if any were to be sanctified in the womb now, they would need to be baptized, in order to be conformed to Christ's other members by receiving the character

Fr.Martin Fox :
On the contrary, Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit."

Lionel:
What has this to do with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ? These cases are not visible to us in real life. So they cannot be relevant or an exception to the traditional teaching.All need the baptism of water for salvation.
Why have you mentioned it ? Are you inferring that these cases are physically visible to us? If you say there are exceptions you infer that they are visible to you. You know someone in 2014 saved without the baptism of water?
 
Fr.Martin Fox :
Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification.
Lionel:
O.K assuming he could. It still is an invisible case for us in 2014. If it is not visible it is not an exception. Like Cardinal Cushing are you inferring that this case is personally known to us, we can see this person in Heaven and on earth ? So this is an exception to all in real life needing the baptism of water for salvation ? This is a common mistake. Many Catholics are not aware of it.

Fr.Martin Fox:
Then, Thomas goes on to say:

I answer that, The sacrament or Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free-will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
 
Lionel:
Assuming there was such a case it would not be known to us.He would have to be someone with certain qualities, living under certain conditions.This is a hypothetical person.Similarly I could speak of a hypothetical person who meets all these conditions and also finally receives the baptism of water and is saved.Either way you cannot postulate this against the dogma which says all need to enter the Chruch with the baptism of water.
Hypothetical cases are not exceptions in 2014 to all needing the baptism of water for salvation. I cannot meet a hypothetical case on the streets. I cannot say that a friend will be saved or is already saved without the baptism of water.If I meet a non Catholic I cannot say that he will be an exception to exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.I cannot use this non existing person for me to creater a theology of religions or a new ecclesiology.
 
CCC 1257 infers there is known salvation outside the Church.This is irrational.Then CCC 1258,1259,1260 assumes that these hypothtical cases are known exceptions to CCC 1257 which says the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water.
It is common knowledge that we cannot see the dead who are in Heaven. CCC 1257-1260 infers that we can!
 
Fr.Martin Fox:
Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."
 
Lionel:
Yes in faith, in principle, hypothetically it is acceptable.De facto no.In real life, this is an unknown for you and me. So if you only accept this hypothetically there is no problem. If you infer that this case is personally known to us then it would be irrational.

Fr.Martin Fox:
Wait, what else did he say there?
Let's look at it (helpfully bolded):
"God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments..."

Lionel:
Agreed. God can choose to act as he wants  and through the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit, God  tells us how he will judge and act on the Day of Judgement. He tells us all need 'faith and baptism'(AG 7) for salvation.He is saying in Vatican Council II (AG 7) that most people are on the way to Hell since they do not have faith and baptism (AG 7). In the Gospel of Matthew Jesus tells us to enter through the narrow gate for wide is the gate which leads to Hell. People in other religions are on the way to Hell. If there is an exception it would be known only to God.It would would be a theoretical, hypothetical case for us.We cannot infer that we personally know this person who is  saved.

Fr.Martin Fox:
That statement by Saint Thomas Aquinas sure sounds like:
"God is not limited to the Sacraments" by Cardinal Ratzinger...

Lionel:
If it sounds like 'God is not limited to the Sacraments' then it would contradict CCC 1257 which also indicates that God is limited to the Sacraments. CCC 1257 says that the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water.  CCC 1257  would also contradict itself when it says 'God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism'.God has bound salvation to the Sacraments in 2014 and God has not bound salvation to the Sacraments ? You can't have it both ways. This would be contrary to the Principle of Non Contradiction. It would be double speak. It's also simply irrational and heretical.

Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 :The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
Fr.Martin Fox:
Which statement you labeled as "error."

Lionel:
1.Yes CCC 1257  mixes up the distinctiion between explicit and implicit, in real life and hypothetical, objective and subjective.
2.There are no known cases as such in 2014.It is explicit for God and implicit for us. So CCC 1257 is irrational and in error.
3. No magisterial document before 1949 makes this irrational claim.It is non traditional. Cushingism is non traditional, heretical and irrational.

Fr.Martin Fox:
Was it likewise "error" when Aquinas said it?

Lionel:
You have the quotation from St.Thomas Aquinas in which he affirmed the baptism of water for all(see above). He did not say that  hypothetical cases were known, explicit, objective exceptions to the dogma on salvation. He  did he say that these hypothetical cases were exceptions to his traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. You have taken the liberty to infer all this ?

Fr.Martin Fox:
This too is a "yes" or "no" answer. No need to fuzz things up with a blizzard of words, as you've consistently done here.

Lionel:
Yes CCC 1257 is irrational, heretical and non traditional.

Fr.Martin Fox:
Just answer the question, yes or no: was Aquinas in error here?

Lionel:
No.However you and CCC1257 are definitely in error.
-Lionel Andrades

http://frmartinfox.blogspot.it/2014/08/combine-old-mass-and-new.html

August 30, 2014
CCC 1257 HERESY IS RELATED TO THE HOLY MASS

CCC 1257 HERESY IS RELATED TO THE HOLY MASS


The issue is related to the Holy Mass, Fr.Martin.With which doctrine will we celebrate the Novus Ordo or Traditional Latin Mass in future ?
1.Do I assume Vatican Council II (AG 7) contradicts LG 16 ( as in your case) or it does not ( as for me).
2.Do I attend Holy Mass in Italian or English knowing that CCC 1257 contradicts CCC 1258 etc ( as in your case) or that CCC 1258 etc  are acceptable as implcit for us and so not a contradiction ( as in my case)?.
Apply the same reasoning to the Nicene Creed.
When is a sin of faith a mortal sin and who is in a mortal sin and should be wary before receiving the Eucharist or celebrating Holy Mass ?.
-Lionel Andrades

CCC 1257 IS HERESY: CONTRADICTS NICENE CREED AND EX CATHEDRA DOGMA ON SALVATION

CCC 1257 is double talk, irrational and non traditional.It contradicts the teaching of the Holy Spirit over the centuries

 


CARDINAL JOSEPH RATZINGER MADE AN OBJECTIVE ERROR IN THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (N.1257)
 

CCC 846 refers to the aphorism outside the church there is no salvation. It was not an aphorism it was a dogma!!

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/ccc-846-refers-to-aphorism-outside.html#links

Who was Cardinal Cushing to suggest that the baptism of desire was an exception to the centuries old teaching?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/who-was-cardinal-cushing-to-suggest.html#links

The text of the defined dogma does not mention any exceptions.So how can the Catechism say God is not limited to the Sacraments ?

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/the-text-of-defined-dogma-does-not.html#links

Catholic bishops of Dallas, Fort Worth, Charlotte, Florida, USA approved a Mandatum to teach there is known salvation outside the Church and the dead-saved are visible to us : error in the Catechism n.1257

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/catholic-bishops-of-dallas-fort-worth.html#links
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/vatican-council-ii-without-irrational.html#links

If that line in the Catechism is not wrong, then the only way I can explain it, is as saying God will send those persons who are there without the baptism of water back to earth to be baptised

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/if-that-line-in-catechism-is-not-wrong.html#links

Either way, with or without the Sacraments the person would not be alive on earth, and so would not be an exception to all needing the baptism of water

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/either-way-with-or-without-sacraments.html#links
 
Photo from the CMRI website
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