Thursday, August 21, 2014

Fisheaters Traditional Catholic Forum on "No Salvation Outside the Church"


 





Hi,

Thanks for sharing this.  I am now in a discussion with my sister about this very topic. 
She is a Catholic and believes that there is salvation out side the CC and considers me extreme for my beliefs.  I am sending this to her in the hopes that see watches and learns.

God Bless
All things are possible with God



      
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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 03:03:AM »
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Yes sadly various Catholics believe that salvation can be found outside the Catholic Church. They thus reject the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (No Salvation Outside the Church) Mostly this is done because they do not want to "offend" people from other faiths. We live in a world and a time which as someone once quoted "The cult of niceness) in which we don't speak the truth when it does not sound very nice. Many popes, saints, holy individuals were known for not being very nice, but God does not call us to be nice, I don't even believe it is a word that is found in scripture, rather God wants us to be Holy.

Regarding Baptism of Desire I think it would be good to explain to the person who you are debating that this dogma does not exclude the possibility that a non Catholic can be saved, but that even if such person was to be saved, it is through the same Catholic Church. I think the best means of explaining the dogma of No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church is to start and build up in specific principles.

1) intro

First and foremost what this teaching is saying is that all salvation comes from Christ who is God. (John 14:6) I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Thus because Jesus is God this is saying that there is no salvation apart from Christ who is the savior. We can and only will ever be able to be saved from Christ.

Next we as Catholics know that Jesus founded his Church and not only that but gave Peter the keys which is his Divine Authority

(Matthew 16:18) "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

This means that all salvation comes from the Catholic Church which founded by Christ who saves gave the Church His authority including that of salvation. Since it is only Christ who can save, it is fitting that the Church which has the Divine Authority of Christ is the only Church that has the authority of salvation as well.

2)The Church's teaching on the necessity of Baptism

The Church has always taught that baptism is necessary for salvation. Water Baptism which is the sacramental means of Baptism is to be done if we have the opportunity, however the Church also believes that there are two substitutes for Baptism if Sacramental Water Baptism is not possible.

The Nicene Creed States that as Catholics we believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, yet there are three ways that Baptism can be achieved.

Baptism of Water

The first and sacramental way that someone is to be baptized if they have the opportunity is a water baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If we have this opportunity we must take it and be baptized through water In the Trinitarian method.

Baptism of blood.
Baptism of blood is martyrdom suffered by one who has not been baptized. It is defined as the endurance of death or deadly suffering for the sake of Jesus Christ. Therefore, the martyr must be but to death or endure sufferings that would naturally cause death; the persecutor must inflict death or deadly violence through opposition to the Church, the Catholic Faith, or a Christian virtue. In the case of adults, death or the deadly violence must be endured from a supernatural motvie, and there must be no resistance to try to escape death, and the sufferer must have made acts of Faith and Hope and have at least some sorrow for grace sin committed.

Examples include- the Holy Innocents massacred by King Herod.

Baptism of Desire

There are two ways that you can be baptized through desire. An implicit and Explicit way.

Explicit desire for baptism includes the example of Catechumens who are preparing for baptism (hence have a desire to be baptized) but die before the opportunity arises.

Example: St. Ambrose (340-397 A.D) in his sermon on the Emperor Valentinian II, who died while he was under instruction and unbaptized, said: "I hear you express grief that he did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism. Tell me, what else is there in us except the will and petition? But he had long desire to be initiated before he came to Italy, and expressed his intention to be baptized by me as soon as possible. Has he not, therefore the grace which he desired? Surely he received it because he asked for it? (De Obitu Valent. 51) (This Is The Faith Canon Francis Ripley)

Implicit desire for Baptism is the adults who die without even hearing of Christ and His Gospel who are saved by the merits of Christ if they die in perfect charity or are perfectly contrite for their sins. This includes, as we have said, the implicit desire for Baptism which is a state of mind in which a man would ardently long for Baptism, if he knew it is necessary for salvation.

This implicit desire for baptism consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. We did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.
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Phyllo 
   

Re: Fr Isaac On "No Salvation Outside the Church"
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 12:17:PM »
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While walking with my friend this AM we spoke on this subject.  She said to me that it comes from the Vatican that you can be saved outside the church.  I don't know if this is true or not but if it is no wonder Catholics are confused.  I hope she misunderstood.  Any more now I would rather know what the Church Fathers and prior Popes have to say.  You know Popes before V2.

If a Protestant remains a Protestant until the day he dies I doubt if he is saved. To me a Protestant is a heretic. Even if he happens to believe in the Real Presence he doesn't have it for lack of Apostolic succession.
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MagisterMusicae       
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Re: Fr Isaac On "No Salvation Outside the Church"
        
Implicit desire for Baptism is the adults who die without even hearing of Christ and His Gospel who are saved by the merits of Christ if they die in perfect charity or are perfectly contrite for their sins. This includes, as we have said, the implicit desire for Baptism which is a state of mind in which a man would ardently long for Baptism, if he knew it is necessary for salvation.

This implicit desire for baptism consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. We did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.

One small correction.

The implicit desire for Baptism covers those who have not been baptized. Presuming (though usually we would baptized conditionally) the validity of most Protestant baptisms, they could become members of the Church if they were in invincible ignorance of their heresy, but as soon as they consent to their heresy they would separate themselves from the Church.

As regards the non-Baptized, the would never receive the baptismal character, which makes one a member of the Church, so they would not become members of the Church, but would receive Sanctifying Grace by an implicit desire for Baptism, some explicit amount of Faith, and an Act of Charity (which presumes perfect contrition). They would thereby become members of the Communion of the Saints, but not of the Church.

Water baptism is a necessity of precept for salvation. God commands people to be baptized, but this admits of certain exceptions. Water baptism is a necessity of means for membership in the Church, and this admits of no exceptions, so one who is not baptized cannot be a member of the Church, but could be saved.

Since the graces needed for the exceptional means of salvation are gained through the merits of Christ, applied to men, and this comes by way of the Church, the institution He set up to merit and distribute these graces, if one is saved, he is saved by the Church. If he belongs to a sect or false religion he is still saved by the Church (as means for the graces he received), despite his false religion.

However, since even for Catholics salvation is difficult despite the normal means of sanctification, it is exceedingly rare that those without the benefit of these means (sacraments, etc.) would be able to attain salvation. Thus it is possible, probably has happened, but rarely does.



 
 
 


 

 






  
   


Re: Fr Isaac On "No Salvation Outside the Church"

« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2014, 01:37:PM »



Implicit desire for Baptism is the adults who die without even hearing of Christ and His Gospel who are saved by the merits of Christ if they die in perfect charity or are perfectly contrite for their sins. This includes, as we have said, the implicit desire for Baptism which is a state of mind in which a man would ardently long for Baptism, if he knew it is necessary for salvation.

This implicit desire for baptism consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. We did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.



One small correction.

The implicit desire for Baptism covers those who have not been baptized. Presuming (though usually we would baptized conditionally) the validity of most Protestant baptisms, they could become members of the Church if they were in invincible ignorance of their heresy, but as soon as they consent to their heresy they would separate themselves from the Church.

As regards the non-Baptized, the would never receive the baptismal character, which makes one a member of the Church, so they would not become members of the Church, but would receive Sanctifying Grace by an implicit desire for Baptism, some explicit amount of Faith, and an Act of Charity (which presumes perfect contrition). They would thereby become members of the Communion of the Saints, but not of the Church.

Water baptism is a necessity of precept for salvation. God commands people to be baptized, but this admits of certain exceptions. Water baptism is a necessity of means for membership in the Church, and this admits of no exceptions, so one who is not baptized cannot be a member of the Church, but could be saved.

Since the graces needed for the exceptional means of salvation are gained through the merits of Christ, applied to men, and this comes by way of the Church, the institution He set up to merit and distribute these graces, if one is saved, he is saved by the Church. If he belongs to a sect or false religion he is still saved by the Church (as means for the graces he received), despite his false religion.

However, since even for Catholics salvation is difficult despite the normal means of sanctification, it is exceedingly rare that those without the benefit of these means (sacraments, etc.) would be able to attain salvation. Thus it is possible, probably has happened, but rarely does.



Thanks for posting this out. I am debating with someone on facebook who holds on to Feenyism and the person rejects Baptism of Blood and of Desire.

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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2014, 02:06:PM »

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Thanks for posting this out. I am debating with someone on facebook who holds on to Feenyism and the person rejects Baptism of Blood and of Desire.



I'm not sure that will come to much.

In my experience, no matter how much you quote Church teaching, "Feenyites" stubbornly will reject it in order to "save" their mistaken notion of EENS. They forget that, ultimately, it is for the Church to explain such statements, and the Church has said one cannot be saved without Baptism, or the desire for it.

Still, if they're open to real discussion (considering and responding to your points), it may be worthwhile. If they won't listen, give the Church's teaching and citations, then leave it and don't waste any more of your time.
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ASK FR.VOLPI IF CATHOLICS CAN ACCEPT VATICAN COUNCIL II WITHOUT THE FALSE PREMISE

I have friends among the Franciscans of the Immaculate (FFI) and I am concerned  that they are being forced to accept a lie before they can have a  normal status in the Catholic Church.
They have to lie in the name  of Vatican Council II  before they are allowed to offer the Traditional Latin Mass or teach at a seminary.
I have expressed my concern in writing to the Vatican Press Office, the Apostolic Commissioner of the FFI, Fr.Fidenzio Volpi Ofm.Cap., and Secretary General of the the Franciscans of the Immaculate,Fr.Alfonso Bruno.None of them are acknowledging my charge.They are not responding to my  questions on Vatican Council II and Catholic teachings in general.
The Vatican is obviously  forcing the FFI to accept a public lie in the name of Vatican Council II.So what do I do? To whom do I go?
I have written many blog posts on this issue and e-mailed them to just about every one concerned with the issue.
I have said it so many times. One can interpret Vatican Council II with an irrational premise  or without it.
I repeat  you can interpret Vatican Council II with an irrational premise or without it.
The Vatican Curia wants   the FFI to accept Vatican Council II with the false premise.
The false  premise is a falsehood . It is un -real. It is something illogical and fabricated.
No one in  the Church is protesting against it since the error unknowingly  is widespread.
Vatican Council IiIwithout the  false premise would support extra eclesiam nulla salus and Catholic religious do not want to affirm  this. Since restrictions have been placed by the Vatican following the  instructions of the Jewish Left.
For political reasons the Vatican Curia  does not want to accept the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and now they are forcing the FFI to interpret the Council with the irrational premise.This would result in a break with the dogma and the teaching of Pope Pius X whose feast day is today.
Why should the Franciscans Friars claim that they can physically see the dead saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16) for example, and that these cases are explicit  exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the Catechism of Pope Pius X? This is irresponsible.
They are aware that Wikipedia infers that  Lumen Gentium 16 ( invincible ignorance) is a known exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. There is no correction from any Vatican Office.
How can the deceased non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance be a defacto be a defacto exception in 2014 to all needing the baptism of water for salvation? Is this a known case? Can we see this exception in real life?
To imply that we can see these deceased is false and yet this is expected of the FFI.
They have to accept a Vatican Council II in which LG 16 refers to visible in the flesh cases.They have to conclude that there is known salvation outside the Church.They It is expected that they will  say that not every one defacto needs the baptism of water for salvation.They have to wrongly claim that Vatican Council II is break with traditional teaching on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
This falsehood is stated in black and white.It is there in two theological  papers of the Pontifical Theological Commission.This error can be read any time, on line.Many members of the Vatican Curia have been associated with the  International Theological Commission e.g Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, Cardinal Gerhard Muller, Archbishop Augustine  Di Noia, Mons., Guido Pozzo...They  would have passed over this error.

None of them affirm Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which says all need faith and baptism for salvation.AG is rejected even though it has  been placed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church under the section outside the church no salvation.The FFI have to reject Ad Gentes 7 and claim all do not need 'faith and baptism' for salvation since Lumen Gentium 16 refers to 'visible exceptions' in 2014.This is expected of them by the Vatican.
These are grown up men, priests bishops and cardinals  at the Vatican  who are promoting this irrationality and  making it a condition for regularising the status  of the FFI.
Why must the FFI claim they can see the dead( who are alleged exceptions to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Church) ? Who among us or at the Vatican can see the dead saved in invincible ignorance or with a ray of the Truth (NA 2) ? Yet this irrationality in the name of Vatican Council II is being promoted by the Apostolic Commissioner  and the Secretary General of the FFI . This is being done even after they have been informed?
Vatican Council II can be accepted with or without the false premise. So let the FFI accept the Council without the premise - then normalise their situation.Don't force a lie upon them.They should feel free to accept Vatican Council II without the visible dead theory.
As good Catholics they should continue to reject Vatican Council II with the irrational premise. We cannot see the dead. Presently, in the name of obedience, the FFI are not allowed to express themself on this issue.
 
Friends of the Immaculate, friends and relatives of members of the FFI,ask Fr.Fidenzio Volpi if Catholics can accept Vatican Council II without the false premise.
 
Also note that Roberto de Mattei and the Italian intellectuals  who wrote to Pope Benedict  about Vatican Council II  are making the same error . They need to understand  what is happening here.They too are interpreting Vatican Couhncil II with the false premise and are unaware of it.
There is a choice. They could affirm Vatican Council II without the false premise and show the Vatican Curia, that there is an alternative.The Vatican Council II which they criticize is the one with the false premise.
Once Roberto de Mattei , Bruno Gherardini and others in Italy affirm Vatican Council II without the irrational premise, the FFI can also do the same. They would be endorsing a traditional Vatican Council II.
 
Simple questions for all:-
 1.In 2014 do we know any one ( can we physically see any one) saved with the baptism of desire, invincible ignorance, a ray of the Truth, seeds of the Word, elements of sanctification and truth or good and holy things in other religions?
2.So are there any explicit ( objectively seen, visible) exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus ? Do we know any one in 2014 who de facto does not need to convert ìnto the Church for salvation?
3.Does Vatican Council II mention any exceptions to all needing the baptism of water in 2014 for salvation?
4.Can one accept a Vatican Council II knowing there are no exceptions mentioned in the Council to the traditional teaching on salvation?
-Lionel Andrades