Thursday, April 3, 2014

Video : Bishop Michael Olson does not affirm exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church according to Vatican Council II

Bishop Michael Olson, the bishop of Fort Worth, Dallas has not proclaimed the Good News of salvation to non Catholics in a televised program.Not only did he not affirm Vatican Council II (AG 7) which says 'all' need 'faith and baptism' in the Catholic Church for salvation he has not affirmed the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and has changed the Nicene Creed.
 
The bishop who has banned the Traditional Latin Mass at the Fischer More College participated in a seeming one world religion meeting, of liberals, in which he maintained Catholic  doctrines develop.
 
Bishop Olson is rejecting the traditional ecclesiology of Vatican Council II(AG 7) which says outside the Church there is no salvation and all need to enter the Catholic Church as through a door (CCC 846).
 
He did not tell the Jewish, Lutheran and other participants in the program that according to Vatican Council II they did not have Catholic faith which includes the Sacraments of the Church and the faith and moral teachings. So they were oriented to Hell unless they converted. He was not affirming Vatican Council II, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Dominus Iesus etc.
 
Instead he began the talk by suggesting that Pope Francis said doctrines are not important any more.
-Lionel Andrades


http://www.americanreligious.org/2014/telecasts/arth-2267-ecclesiology-two-view
http://amongtheruins2.blogspot.it/

The Traditional Latin Mass is being offered by priests who reject the old ecclesiology or are not permitted to express it in public

Benedict Carter:
The Mass, as the centre of our Holy Faith, should:
1. Reinforce the entire Catholic Faith in every aspect – the way we worship contains within itself all that we believe;
 
Lionel:
Yes it should but this depends on the priest who offers the Mass and delivers the homily.
 
Benedict Carter
2. It should raise up the individual reverently to the majesty and glory of God;
 
Lionel:
It can do that still.I recall a beautiful Novus Ordo Mass offered by an Italian Franciscan of the Immaculate priest in Rome.
 
Benedict Carter
3. It should present to the individual (sic) soul the starkness and finality of the moral choices we have to make as Catholics in order to inherit Eternal Life;
 
Lionel:
This depends upon the priest offering the Mass and delivering the homily and is independent of the liturgy.
 
Benedict Carter
4. It should keep us in safe continuity with the two thousand years of organic (and in fact miniscule) development of the Church’s main western liturgy, so that we can be Catholics hearing the same words and seeing the same gestures as a Catholic in Italy in the 4th century, as a Portuguese Catholic in the 9th century, as a Swedish Catholic in the 14th century, as an Englishman hearing a recusant Mass in the 17th century; as any Catholic at all until 1968.
 
Lionel:
This is independent of the liturgy of the Mass and depends on the priest.
The Traditional Latin Mass is being offered by priests who reject the old ecclesiology or are not permitted to express it in public.
This would also be true with the Greek Byzantine Mass offered in Rome.
The liturgy does not determine doctrine.
 
Benedict Carter
Communion in worship is communion in belief, not only with one’s fellow Catholics throughout the world, but with all Catholics throughout the centuries back to the time of Christ Himself.
The Novus Ordo does NOT fulfill any of these functions of worship.
 
Lionel:
The Novus Ordo Mass is idependent of all these functions of the Church.Doctrine and theology is independent of the liturgy.
 
Benedict Carter
When an SSPX Bishop says that it represents a new religion, he speaks as a Bishop (yes I know, illicitly consecrated and suspended a divinis) and not as the holder of unusual historical opinions.
 
Lionel:
The SSPX bishop could be making an error in doctrine and then attributing it to the Novus Ordo Mass.
 
Benedict Carter
This view should be thought about most carefully by any serious Catholic. It is a terrible charge to lay on the Novus Ordo and I believe that fundamentally it is correct.
 
Lionel:
I believe it is fundamentally wrong.
 
Benedict Carter
That there has been a gigantic rupture in the Church these past fifty years cannot be denied. Those who do deny it are either very stupid, have a vested interest in the rupture or (even worse) are quite happy that it occurred, whatever the damage done; or have been formed by it and don’t know anything else.
 
Lionel:
There has been a rupture.
 
Benedict Carter
I was born in 1963 so came to self-consciousness with the changes already made. I count myself extremely lucky to be the child of parents whose whole lives and characters were formed by and steeped in the Catholic Faith of their parents, people of the First World War generation. So prayers were said, our home was full of religious pictures, statues, music, books and conversation, going to Mass was a very serious matter and the whole world of Catholicism was in our home constantly.
 
Lionel:
The same with me. I was born in 1954.
 
Benedict Carter
The rupture has caused conflict within families, civil war in the Church, and apostasy on a scale not seen since the 16th century and before that, in the time of Arius; and has lost countless souls. I am sure of this latter point: the changes have cost many, many souls. At the heart of the rupture is the Novus Ordo: quite understandable, as the Mass is the centre and summit of the Catholic Faith. So what is the nature of the rupture, seen most vividly in the New Mass?
‘At the heart of the rupture is the Novus Ordo: quite understandable,..’

Lionel:
No it not the Novus Ordo Mass. It is reflected in the Novus Ordo Mass. It is also reflected in the Traditional Latin Mass offered in Rome.
 
Benedict Carter
‘So what is the nature of the rupture, seen most vividly in the New Mass?..’
 
Lionel:
It is the use of an obvious irrationality to change doctrine and suggest there is a New Revelation in the Catholic Church.It is a specific error. Get rid of the error and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Vatican Council II and other magisterial documents become traditional.
When these documents are found to be traditional by the majority of Catholics, the priests and laity will express this during Mass in the different rites.Then there will be a natural hermeneutic of continuity.
-Lionel Andrades

I attend the Novus Ordo Mass and the Traditional Latin Mass and there is no change in doctrine for me. Vatican Council II is not a problem.

Benedict Carter
“THE MASS
Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci (‘The Ottaviani Intervention’, 1969) to Pope Paul:
“The Novus Ordo Missae, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules… is impregnated with the spirit of Protestantism. It bears within it a poison harmful to the faith.”
“We have limited ourselves to a summary evaluation of the Novus Ordo where it deviates most seriously from the theology of the Catholic Mass and our observations touch only those deviations that are typical. A complete evaluation of all the pitfalls, the dangers, the spiritually and psychologically destructive elements contained in the document—whether in text, rubrics or instructions – would be a vast undertaking.”
‘the Novus Ordo where it deviates most seriously from the theology of the Catholic Mass’
‘…the theology of the Catholic Mass ?
Lionel:
I attend Holy Mass in Italian and also the Traditional Latin Mass and there is no difference in theology for me.Ecclesiology has not changed.
 
Benedict Carter
…A complete evaluation of all the pitfalls, the dangers, the spiritually and psychologically destructive elements contained in the document—whether in text, rubrics or instructions – would be a vast undertaking.”

Lionel:
All this is not needed.There has to be only simple action and all will come in harmony. We only have to acknowledge a simple, specific error and then avoid it. See http://protectthepope.com/?p=10239

Benedict Carter

Cardinal Alfons Stickler, November 27, 2004:
“The analysis of the Novus Ordo made by these two cardinals has lost none of its value nor, unfortunately, of its relevance …. the results of the reform are considered by many today to be devastating. It was to the credit of Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci that they discovered very quickly that the change of the rites led to a fundamental change of doctrine.”
‘…they discovered very quickly that the change of the rites led to a fundamental change of doctrine.”

Lionel:
False.The change in doctrine was independent of the liturgy.
I attend the Novus Ordo Mass and the Traditional Latin Mass and there is no change in doctrine for me. Vatican Council II is not a problem.
-Lionel Andrades

http://protectthepope.com/?p=10267


Vatican Council II in its text is not ambigous. However the text can be interpreted irrationally.So the Council comes across as ambigous.


Kneeling Catholics are beautiful!

From Protect the Pope blog
Scary Goat:
Firstly, if continuity is obvious, why would we need to be told to apply a “hermeneutic of continuity”? Doesn’t the very fact that we have been told this imply that there has been at least a perceived rupture?
Lionel:
I attend Mass in Italian and I also attend the Traditional Latin Mass.There is no hermeneutic of rupture for me.
Scary Goat:
Secondly, it seems quite obvious that at least in practice there has been rupture.

Asi comulgaba el Pio














Lionel:
There is no rupture for me in theory and practise.

Scary Goat:
We are told that the “spirit of VII” “misinterprets” the actual documents of VII.

Lionel:
Yes the “spirit of VII” the liberal interpretation of Vatican Council II misrepresents the actual text of Vatican Council II.

Scary Goat:
Yet does it not seem reasonable that the accusation that the documents were ambiguous is correct because if they were “fool-proof” they could not have been misinterpreted?

Lionel:

Vatican Council II in its text is not ambigous. However the text can be interpreted irrationally.So the Council comes across as ambigous.

Scary Goat:
Thirdly, bearing in mind the hermeneutic of continuity, how can Traditionalists (SSPX for example) be in any sort of doctrinal error?

Lionel:
They are.I have answered this question on the thread ‘Lionel Andrades and extra ecclesiam nulla salus’ on this blog. http://protectthepope.com/?p=10239

Scary Goat:
As they simply stick with the previous teachings, how can they be in error if nothing has changed?

Lionel:
Something has changed in the Church since the 1940′s in Boston.The SSPX sticks with this error.This was not part of the Deposit of Faith before the 1940′s.

Scary Goat:
For Traditionalists to be in error regarding the modern Church, surely that means something has changed that they are not accepting….in which case there has been rupture?

Lionel:
Yes something has changed!And accepting this irrationality has resulted in a rupture.

-Lionel Andrades
http://protectthepope.com/?p=10279
http://kneelingcatholic.blogspot.it/

There is no text in Vatican Council II which contradicts Feeneyism

Feeneyism is the official teaching of the Catholic Church unless one assumes implicit for us baptism of desire is explicit for us.


According to Feeneyism  every one needs to enter the Catholic Church with 'faith and baptism' and there are no exceptions.
 
According to Feeneyism  the baptism of desire is not an exception to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
 
According to Cushingism  every one does not need to enter the Catholic Church with faith and baptism  in 2014 and there are exceptions.
 
According to Cushingism  the baptism of desire is an exception to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. 
 
According to Feeneyism Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance) is not an exception to Ad Gentes 7 ( all need faith and baptism)  and the dogma on exclusive salvation. Vatican Council II is not confusing.
 
According to Cushingism Lumen Gentium 16  is an exception.Vatican Council II contradicts itself.
 
Feeneyism says there are no exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Cushingism says there are exceptions. Cushingism is heresy.
 
The Society of St.Pius X, Fischer More College and other traditionalists  have been using Cushingism. For liberals Cushingism is the basis for liberalism  and dissent with reference to Vatican Council II.
 
Vatican Council II  and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949  of Pope Pius XII, in two theological papers of the International Theological Commission, are interpreted according to Cushingism. The ITC papers were approved by Pope Benedict XVI.
 
Pope Francis expects the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate to accept Vatican Council II according to Cushingism, only then will they be allowed to offer the Traditional Latin Mass in Rome.
The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate  could end the dead lock by announcing that they interpret Vatican Council II and other magisterial documents  according to Feeneyism. So they affirm Vatican Council II and Tradition ( the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Catechism of Pope Pius X, the Syllabus of Errors etc).
 
Similarly Michael King, the President of Fischer-More College, USA  could announce that they affirm Vatican Council II according to Feeneyism . He can ask Bishop Michael Olson, the bishop of Fort Worth, and the FSSP priests there, to also do the same.
 
The SSPX could clarify that in a discussion on the subject of the baptism of desire, there could be confusion over invisible for us  baptism of desire and visible to us  baptism of desire and that invisible for us  baptism of desire, is their rational choice.
 
They also need to point out the factual error on the website of the International Theological Commission. The same error is there on the SSPX website under the subject Feeneyism. The SSPX is critical of Feeneyism since for the SSPX, Feeneyism  refers to the rejection of explicit for us baptism of desire.
-Lionel Andrades

Photo: Fr.Leonard Feeney- now at the centre of two  interpretations of Vatican Council II.

http://www.marymediatrix.com/religious-life/friars.html