What you call meaningless to you is the teaching of the Church.
Lionel:
For something/someone to be an exception it/he must exist and must be different. If there is an orange in a box of apples then that orange is an exception.It exists there in that box so it is an exception.
If any pope, cardinal or bishop says that the baptism of desire or being saved in invincible ignorance ( without the baptism of water) exists in our reality then it is to be rejected.Since in general we cannot with our physical eyes see any one in Heaven. They would have to exist physically in our reality. It is then that we can say, "Hey look at this guy. He lives down the road. He was saved with the baptism of desire and without the baptism of water. He is an exception to the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on the neccessity of faith and the baptism of water for all".
Or you would say,"Meet my aunt. She is such a wonderful person.God told her she would be saved in invincible ignorance and so she does not have to convert into the Catholic Church.She is an exception to the Feeneyite concept of extra ecclesiam nulla salus".
So this was the error made by 'the Church' in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 . They assumed that we could physically see a person on earth who would be saved without the baptism of water and so Fr.Leonard Feeney was wrong.
This is Cushingism. Cushingism means assuming the dead who are now in Heaven are physically visible to us on earth; they exist in our reality.
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Judging the cases is not up to you, it's up to the Church.
Lionel:
If you say that there are explicit exceptions to the dogma then you have judged? Someone you know does not need the baptism of water to go to Heaven ?
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Examples of known cases ARE THE SAINTS
Lionel:
The saints are not physically seen on earth. We believe St. Francis of Assisi is in Heaven but we cannot see him.
For there to be an exception to the dogma the case would have to be personally known or seen on earth.
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We have another interesting case here IF YOU BELIEVE THE SAINT WHO SAID SO.A True Story concerning Baptism of Desire and the Cure’ of Ars, St. John Vianney
Lionel:
The baptism of desire is not a problem for me. As long as you do not imply that it refers to known and visible cases, who are explicit exceptions, to the interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeeny.
The baptism of desire ( invisible for us) is compatible with Fr.Leonard Feeney's 'rigorist interpretation 'of the dogma.
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JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW ANY CASE IN 2014 DOESN'T MEAN A THING.
Lionel:
It means there are no known exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma according to the Church Councils, popes, saints and Fr.Leonard Feeeny.
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FACTS ARE FACTS REGARDLESS WHETHER A CASE EVEN EXISTS.
Lionel:
It is a fact that a case of the baptism of desire, of someone saved without the baptism of water( or with the baptism of water) , does not exist in 2014 for us. We do not know anyone saved us such.
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You don't know any known cases who were saved with baptism of water either.
Lionel:
Yes and I am not saying that the baptism of desire ( with or without the baptism of water) is an exception to the dogma. The Letter of the Holy Office suggests it is.This is how Vatican Council II is accepted. LG 16 is supposed to be an exception to the dogma. The same false inference has led to the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 saying God is not limited to the Sacraments. Defacto he is limited to the Sacraments according to the dogma, the Syllabus of Errors etc.
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Does that mean baptism doesn't save since you don't know any actual cases?
Lionel:
It means that a person can be saved with the baptism of desire followed by the baptism of water and it would be known only to God. It is not an exception or relevant to the traditional teaching.In general God saves with the baptism of water. It is given to adults with Catholic Faith.
-Lionel Andrades
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