Thursday, December 4, 2014

So the Church is saying that Patriarch Bartolomew needs to enter the Church to avoid Hell. This is a magisterial teaching.

Lynda
The doctrine is certain, not hypothetical.
Lionel:
Baptism of desire is a doctrine of the Catholic Church.It refers to a hypothetical case.
This doctrine does not say that it is an exception to Tradition. It was made an exception in 1949.
Can you quote any pope or saint before 1949 who said that these cases are visible to us and so are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma ? There is no precedent and if there was he would be making an objective mistake.
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Francis bows to Patriarch BartholomewLynda:
As for whether or not any specific person has been saved, that we cannot generally know, except where it has been revealed by God to the Church that he is a saint, or there is no other possibility (e.g., baptised infant, incapable of personal sin).
Lionel:
Yes we can be sure the saints are in Heaven since the Church says so.
The Church also says that all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation (Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441). So the Church is saying that Patriarch Bartolomew needs to enter the Church to avoid Hell. This is a magisterial teaching.
The Church also says that all need ‘faith and baptism’ for salvation, Patriarch Bartolomew does not have Catholic Faith, which includes the faith and moral teachings of the Church( according to Tradition).The Orthodox Church does not accept the papacy. Neither do they accept the Catholic Sacraments through which God saves. According to the Magisterium after Vatican Council II, Patriarch Bartolomew is oriented to Hell.
He is not in invincible ignorance and cannot give himself the baptism of desire.
According to the Catholic Magisterium (Cantate Dominio 1441, Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14) etc most people are on the way to Hell since they die without faith and baptism.
Jesus has said that the way to Hell is large and most people take it. So enter through the narrow gate. The Church is the narrow gate.Living the Gospel teachings as interpreted by the Catholic Church is the narrow gate.
Jesus has said that those who do not believe will be condemned. Most people die as unbelievers.
Jesus mentioned the necessity of the baptism of water for salvation. Most people die without the baptism of water.
In Italy for instance, Jews. Muslims and other non Catholics do not have ‘faith and baptism’ (AG 7) and they know about the Catholic Church and yet do not enter (LG 14).So they are oriented to Hell according to the traditional magisterium of the Catholic Church. Similarly Protestansts, Orthodox Christians, Pentecostals, Jehovah Witnesses etc are also outside the Church .Magisterial documents indicate that they are all on the way to Hell.
-Lionel Andrades

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