_______________________________
Trady pooh:
... Why has this become such a hobby horse for you? Just seems odd.
Lionel:
Since it is clear to me that the Holy Office and the Archdiocese of Boston in 1949 made an objective error.Cases of the baptism of desire etc would have to be known and be visible to us to be exceptions to the interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney.
The popes instead have assumed that Pope Pius XII. was correct.Since then theology has gone off the rails in the Catholic Church.It has become irrational.
Implict for us, invisible for us baptism of desire, a possibility known only to God is perfectly compatible with the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma. It does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction.If you aware that these cases are not visible in the flesh to be exceptions there is no contradiction.
_____________________
I'm curious what you would say about the Blessed Mother, since, as far as I know, she was never confirmed formally as a Catholic.
Lionel
She was sinless and went to Heaven.
All the good persons who died before the coming of Jesus had to wait in Abraham's bosom for the coming of the Messiah. He then took they to Heaven.
_____________________
What about Elijah, who was reportedly taken into heaven, though was never baptized?
Lionel:
After the Resurrection he went to Heaven.
God has chosen that all people enter the Catholic Church founded by His Son Jesus Christ. This is the means he chose for salvation for all.Jesus is the Saviour. He saves from Hell. We can accept his Sacrifice and salvation by responding with Catholic Faith.It includes the baptism of water.
______________________
Or, for that matter, St. Joseph? Do you see him in heaven?
Lionel:
Yes I see him in Heaven.
Assuming there are persons who have died this year without the baptism of water, these cases would not be relevant or an exception to the dogma.Since invisible, hypothetical cases are not defacto exceptions in the present times.So all still need the baptism of water for salvation in 2014.
___________________
What about the thief on the cross, of whom our Lord said that today he would be with Him in paradise? Was he a baptized member of the Church in good standing?
Lionel:
We do not know of any Good Thief this year or any one saved as such. Assuming there was one,he would not be an exception to the dogma.
____________________
Oh, Limbo? Even St. Joseph? The Blessed Mother? I think not.
What about catechumens who die before they are baptized and confirmed?
Lionel:
They can be saved.
I do not deny this.
As long as you do not project these cases as an exception to the dogma. I would not object.
___________________
So you're denying that "invincible ignorance" or "baptism of desire" are possible, or just that anyone can know that they're actual?
Lionel:
I accept them as a possibility. I deny that they are exceptions to the dogma.
... Why has this become such a hobby horse for you? Just seems odd.
Lionel:
Since it is clear to me that the Holy Office and the Archdiocese of Boston in 1949 made an objective error.Cases of the baptism of desire etc would have to be known and be visible to us to be exceptions to the interpretation of the dogma according to Fr.Leonard Feeney.
The popes instead have assumed that Pope Pius XII. was correct.Since then theology has gone off the rails in the Catholic Church.It has become irrational.
Implict for us, invisible for us baptism of desire, a possibility known only to God is perfectly compatible with the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma. It does not contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction.If you aware that these cases are not visible in the flesh to be exceptions there is no contradiction.
_____________________
I'm curious what you would say about the Blessed Mother, since, as far as I know, she was never confirmed formally as a Catholic.
Lionel
She was sinless and went to Heaven.
All the good persons who died before the coming of Jesus had to wait in Abraham's bosom for the coming of the Messiah. He then took they to Heaven.
_____________________
What about Elijah, who was reportedly taken into heaven, though was never baptized?
Lionel:
After the Resurrection he went to Heaven.
God has chosen that all people enter the Catholic Church founded by His Son Jesus Christ. This is the means he chose for salvation for all.Jesus is the Saviour. He saves from Hell. We can accept his Sacrifice and salvation by responding with Catholic Faith.It includes the baptism of water.
______________________
Or, for that matter, St. Joseph? Do you see him in heaven?
Lionel:
Yes I see him in Heaven.
Assuming there are persons who have died this year without the baptism of water, these cases would not be relevant or an exception to the dogma.Since invisible, hypothetical cases are not defacto exceptions in the present times.So all still need the baptism of water for salvation in 2014.
___________________
What about the thief on the cross, of whom our Lord said that today he would be with Him in paradise? Was he a baptized member of the Church in good standing?
Lionel:
We do not know of any Good Thief this year or any one saved as such. Assuming there was one,he would not be an exception to the dogma.
____________________
Oh, Limbo? Even St. Joseph? The Blessed Mother? I think not.
What about catechumens who die before they are baptized and confirmed?
Lionel:
They can be saved.
I do not deny this.
As long as you do not project these cases as an exception to the dogma. I would not object.
___________________
So you're denying that "invincible ignorance" or "baptism of desire" are possible, or just that anyone can know that they're actual?
Lionel:
I accept them as a possibility. I deny that they are exceptions to the dogma.
-Lionel Andrades
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