Monday, December 22, 2014

If a pope uses the irrational premise and comes to an irrational conclusion it still is an objective error, even if he is the pope.

I have received an e-mail from an apologist.
You need to be more specific about what you are saying and also define your terms. What premise, what conclusion, what theology, what Tradition. Be very specific about what you are saying. Your point, if there is one, isnt' comprehensible.
Thank you for mentioning it.
what premise ?
The irrational premise is "The dead are visible to us on earth".
what conclusion ?
The conclusion is since the dead are visible to us on earth those who are saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance are explicit ( visible in the flesh) exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
what theology,
So the post -1949 theology says every one needs to enter the Catholic Church except for those in invincible ignorance or with the baptism of desire.
Defacto there are known exceptions to the interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney of Boston.
what Tradition.
Pre- 1949 Catholic Tradition, on salvation ( soteriology) says there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. The three dogmas on extra ecclesiam nulla salus ,defined by three Church Councils do not mention any exception. The text also does not mention the baptism of desire or being saved in invincible ignorance.I am referring to Cantate Dominio, Council of Florence 1441.
Also Mystici Corporis and the Council of Trent mention implicit desire etc but do not state that these cases are known to us, to be exceptions to the dogma .Neither do they state that there are exceptions to the dogma.
Yet with the false premise and false conclusion this is how the Council of Trent, the Catechism of Pope Pius X etc are interpreted.
If a pope uses the irrational premise and comes to an irrational conclusion it still is an objective error, even if he is the pope. It is a fact of life that we cannot see persons in Heaven saved with the baptism of desire. We do not know any one this year saved without the batism of water. So so how can these cases be postulated as exceptions?
-Lionel Andrades


George Brenner said...

Lionel, the responses that you get from almost unanimous posts from the clerics and lay Catholics could be considered ludicrous if not for the fact that salvation is a matter of spiritual and eternal life and death.
When I was in grade school and part of high school, no salvation was very simple as was the need for the conversion of non Catholics to the one and only true Faith, Catholicism. The way of attaining salvation was understood to be the tried and true formula expressed by Popes, Saints, ex Catherdra pronouncements, doctrine, tradition and catechesis for almost 2000 years. If a person was saved other then by this formula that soul was incorporated into the Catholic Church unknown to us at judgement by God's mercy and they were/are most indeed Catholic. The Catholic Church never offered BOD, BOB and Invincible Ignorance to choose from as an option or exception for salvation. The Church now assumes that non Catholics can be saved without the Mass, Holy Eucharist, sacraments and pressing need of conversion. The Church fails miserably in the command of Jesus to teach all things that He commanded. Mercy and love without truth are worthless in fact worse for they encourage disobedience and complacency in their beliefs which hold countless errors and at the very best severely incomplete. If the Church does not teach, correct and educate with love and mercy how are non Catholics to know love and understand the eternal beauty of Jesus's Church.
The Church for centuries has recognized BOB,BOD and Invincible Ignorance as falling under the possible mercies of God and these conditions in no way limit or restrict teaching all that they must convert to Catholicism. If someone is Invincibly Ignorant it is the duty, responsibility and command of Jesus to help and lovingly change them whenever and wherever possible in finding the truth.
Since VCII for all save a very few, No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church is only valid if one believes such is the case for them. You can scarcely ever find a priest say that there is only one true Church let alone finish the statement by saying, outside which there is no Salvation. When the Pope and clerics cover the Crucifix, statutes of Our Lady, St Joseph etc so as not to offend those from other religious beliefs at supposed ecumenical dialogue meetings it demonstrates their embarrassment and denial of our true Catholic Faith. It is a direct affront on Jesus who is Catholic and surely causes untold pain in all of Heaven. We have indeed reduce NSOCC to a meaningless formula for which we suffer this punishment. If only those who blog had the same passion and desire to explain clearly the bedrock of our faith as they do in trying to explain it away we would have a much holier Catholic Church that is pleasing and diligent in reverence in doing the will of God.

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...

I agree with you George.
...and so we keep working!