From Speray' s Catholicism in a Nutshell
Steve Speray:
Meanwhile, I’ll be waiting for you to show that teaching by the Church that states “for salvation, all need to be a member of the Church in the external forum.”
Lionel:
1.
See the part underlined. It indicates all need to enter the Catholic Church formally, in the external forum, with visible baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
“Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it:
- “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
- “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
- “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
2.
Here Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II indicates that all need to be an objective member of the Catholic Church with 'faith and baptism' for salvation..
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. -Ad Gentes 7.
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Steve Speray:
No need for me to comment further. I stand by my position, with the Church’s teaching backing me up.
Lionel:
There are so many questions and points which have not been answered.What do you mean by the Church's teaching backing me up?' and could ' the Church' have made an objective mistake in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 ?
1.For me Lionel there are no contradictions in Vatican Council II. Since LG 16,LG 8, UR 3 etc refer to cases not to cases who are not visible to us on earth so they are irrelevant to the dogma. They contradict the dogma for you? Does Vatican Council II contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
2.When I affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus I am saying that all non Catholics in 2014 need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. So this can be a basis for affirming the Doctrine on the Social Reign of Christ the King over all political legislation?
3.There is no case known of someone saved without the baptism of water in 2014. You do not know of any one saved outside the Church. You do not know of any one who will be saved this year without the baptism of water and so will be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.? Is this how you understand the baptism of desire?
4.The baptism of desire is always hypothetical for us.This is a fact of life.We cannot give someone the baptism of desire as a priest can give a person the baptism of water ?
5.Baptism of desire and necessity of means and precepts must not be referred to with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus since they are hypothetical, theoretical concepts only. They are known and relevant only to God. It has nothing to do with the dogma for us human beings ?
6.Whoever is saved with the baptism of desire, or according to the necessity of means or precepts, is known only to God these cases are theoretical,hypothetical and invisible for us ?
7.A non Catholic cannot say that he is going to convert with the baptism of desire and so would not need the baptism of water. Neither can he say that he will be a martyr and so will be saved without the baptism of water?
8.Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So the traditional teaching on other religions and Christian communities has not changed ?
9.The traditionalists and sedevacantists like the popes use an irrational inference in the interpretation of Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. So the Council appears as a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
10.So for the popes and all Catholics, there is salvation outside the Church which contradicts the traditional teaching on other religions and the 'old' exclusive ecclesiology.The Social Reign of Jesus Christ has been made obsolete with alleged salvation outside the Catholic Church known to us ?
-Lionel Andrades
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