Barbara:
But the rest of my post still stands. Ask yourself this question: Why do we have a feast day for The Holy Innocents? They were not baptized, and they did not have the intellect to know they were dying for Jesus, nor did they have an opportunity to desire the will of God be done. Yet they were ‘saved.’
But the rest of my post still stands. Ask yourself this question: Why do we have a feast day for The Holy Innocents? They were not baptized, and they did not have the intellect to know they were dying for Jesus, nor did they have an opportunity to desire the will of God be done. Yet they were ‘saved.’
Lionel:
Yes a person can be saved with the baptism of desire etc which are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus for me. There can be a 100 persons saved this year with the baptism of desire etc and we would not know of them. So the baptism of desire is not an exception to the defined dogma which says all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation.
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Yes a person can be saved with the baptism of desire etc which are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus for me. There can be a 100 persons saved this year with the baptism of desire etc and we would not know of them. So the baptism of desire is not an exception to the defined dogma which says all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation.
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Barbara:
For those outside the Church who are in invincible ignorance, God will send an Angel, a missionary, or will Himself inspire them to know what’s necessary for salvation.
For those outside the Church who are in invincible ignorance, God will send an Angel, a missionary, or will Himself inspire them to know what’s necessary for salvation.
Lionel:
Yes and we would not know who this person is? So this case would not be relevant to the traditional dogmatic teaching on salvation?
Yes and we would not know who this person is? So this case would not be relevant to the traditional dogmatic teaching on salvation?
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Barbara:
This is Tradition, Dogma, and Church Teaching throughout the ages.
This is Tradition, Dogma, and Church Teaching throughout the ages.
Lionel:The visible for us baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance is irrational and was not part of the teaching of the Catholic Church before 1949.
It is unfortunate that the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus was not mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church nor supported by the Magisterium after 1949.
Also Pope Pius XII did not affirm it in public during the Fr.Leonard Feeney case in Boston in 1949. This was about the time of the creation of the state of Israel.He could not get himself to say that all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell. He let the confusion persist in the Church.
It is unfortunate that the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus was not mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church nor supported by the Magisterium after 1949.
Also Pope Pius XII did not affirm it in public during the Fr.Leonard Feeney case in Boston in 1949. This was about the time of the creation of the state of Israel.He could not get himself to say that all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell. He let the confusion persist in the Church.
-Lionel Andrades
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