For IF that soul is saved, then it was indeed Catholic before death. Not partially, but fully inside the Church. Whether we see it or not.
Criag:
Criag:
Lionel,
This has been driving me nuts for a few weeks and I haven’t said anything. So against my better judgment, I’m going to go ahead and say something.
Look man, when the Church pronounces a dogma, it’s true, period. Whether or not we can scientifically measure it, see it, taste it, etc. It’s simply true.
And it is a dogmatic Truth that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Full stop. Whether we see it or not, it’s true. Before a soul leaves the body, if it’s not placed within the Catholic Church, it is not saved.
Lionel:
Agreed 100 %
Criag:
Whether or not we see it joined to the Church is irrelevant. If it is, it can be saved, if it’s not, it can’t be saved.
Lionel:
Agreed 100%
I dont have to quote you the dogma-text since we are in agreeement.
Criag:
Your whole lengthy tomes on “since we can’t see it, EENS is still true.”
Lionel:
The “since we can’t see it” comments refer to the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance.
See the SSPX USA post on Feeneyism.
They affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and without a bat of the eye also say that the baptism of desire etc are exceptions.It makes sense for them.
Then I have to come in with…. how can the baptism of desire etc be an exception to the dogma. This is elementary, man. If there are no visible exceptions on earth, how can ‘the exception’ be an exception? It is here where I have to bring in the “since we can’t see it” reminder. It is not with EENS, as you thought. It is only when someone says there are exceptions to EENS.
And that someone happens to be the Holy Office 1949 along with the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits who were also active at Vatican Councll II. So it is a very serious thing. You have the average Catholic affirming an irrationality and heresy and believing it is a de fide teaching.EENS is a de fide teaching. Visible baptism of desire is not. Invisible for us baptism of desire is acceptable.
_______________________________
Criag:
I’m sorry man, that statement makes no sense. I’m sorry to have to finally break it to you, but it just doesn’t make any logical sense. Your posts are distracting man. Please.
Lionel:
Obviously it would not make sense.
Conversely from my point of view it does not make sense when you assume that all salvation in Heaven mentioned in Vatican Council II is a break with EENS.
For me this is irrational.
Then I have to begin explaining….LG 16 refers to a hypothetical case. Please do not consider an exception to the dogma…etc, etc.
Criag:
If a soul is outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church, then it must enter Her one way or the other before death, or it’s lost.
Lionel:
Yes and of course and this has nothing to do with EENS. Every one in 2014 needs to formally convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.
Criag:
Can the Good Lord bring that soul in Himself in ways we can’t see in the moments before death? He sure can.
Lionel:
Sure he can in this hypothethical case.Of course he can! And for me he could also bring this person to Heaven with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
And of course this person is only a theoretical case, a possibility known only to God. So he will not be an exception to the traditional interpretation of the dogma according to the Church Councils.
Since if you infer this is an exception or relevant to the dogma….(you know the rest!).
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Criag:
Whether or not we see it is irrelevant.
Lionel:
Relevant to what ?
Are you saying it is not relevant to the interpretation of EENS according to Fr.Leonard Feeney, the popes and saints?
Is it relevant to Vatican Council II ? Does Vatican Council II contradict St.Robert Bellarmine’s understanding of EENS? Or St.Maximillian Kolbe?
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Criag:
It remains a theoretical possibility…and one that doesn’t touch upon EENS.
Lionel:
Agreed 100%
Would you say the SSPX is wrong here ? A theoretical possibility ( baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance) is considered a defacto exception to the dogma EENS.The SSPX USA is following the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
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Criag:
For IF that soul is saved, then it was indeed Catholic before death. Not partially, but fully inside the Church. Whether we see it or not.
Lionel:
Yes. And being a theoretical possibility, it is not, as you say, relevant to EENS.
Also after death, there are cases of persons who return to life only to be baptized and they return to the supernatural life. This is the experience of Catholic saints including St. Francis Xavier.
So all who are in Heaven are Catholics. There are only Catholics in Heaven.
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Criag:
Maybe Our Lord saves a lot this way, maybe none. We can’t know this side or the Pearly Gates.
Lionel:
Yes it is irrelevant to EENS.
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Criag:
We simply have to work toward the objective of winning souls for Christ by bringing them into His One Holy Catholic Church…for outside of Her, there is NO salvation. Full stop
Lionel:
Agreed!
-Lionel Andrades
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