Lionel:
Once again this is according to the controversial Letter of the Holy Office 1949. We do not know any one who will be saved in 2014 according to precept or means. This will be for God to judge. So there is no exception here to all needing the baptism of water for salvation in 2014 and there are no exceptions of necessity of precept or means.
For the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 those who are saved with the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are visible to us.This is irrational.So there theology is based on an irrationality.
Here is the on going discussion with Steven Speray. Comments today are in purple.
STEVEN SPERAY:
Wrong. Every post-Trent pope taught it the way I stated.
Nov.24,2014
Lionel:
Please cite the Council of Trent where it says that implicit desire/ baptism of desire is :
1. Visible to us in particular cases in the present times.
2. Are known exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
3:Also quote any pope before Trent who has said the same (1 & 2)
They only refer to the implicit desire and being saved in invincible ignorance. They do not say that these cases are visible to us or an exception to the dogma. This was the wrong inference made by the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. There was no precedent for their irrationality.
________________________________________
Lionel:
The Church has always taught in the dogma that baptism of water and formal entry into the Church is absolutely needed at all time(Cantate Dominco, Council of Florence, Vatican Council II, Ad Gentes 7).
SPERAY: I didn't say otherwise concerning external forum.
Lionel:
If the baptism of desire refers to someone who is saved without the baptism of desire you are implying that there is a case in the external forum which is an exception to the dogmatic teaching. It would have to be in the external forum to be an exception.
Steven:
To be a member of the Church in external forum we must be Baptized.
Lionel:
Yes. Baptised with water in the external forum.
Baptised with water as a formal member of the Church.
Defacto needing the baptism of water.
In the external forum, as a formal member, defacto we do not know any one saved with the baptism of desire, for it to relevant or an exception to the dogma.
We do not know any one 'incorporated into the Church' without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water who is an exception to the traditional teaching on salvation.
We do not know any one who 'subsists it' in the Church in 2014 who is an exception to all needing to be a member of the Church in the external forum.
Steven:
That's a different argument. BE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE ARGUING. Is it how to understand in the external forum how becomes a member of the Church formally? OR Is it how a person can possibly be saved in the internal forum? TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES.
Lionel:
No there is only issue. The external forum. The internal forum is known only to God. This was the mistake of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. The Letter mixes up invisible and visible, dejure and defacto,subjective and objective.
Those who are saved with the baptism of desire or blood can be saved with the baptism of water and God will provide the means.
Steven:
God can provide the means without water according to every pope after Trent.
Lionel:
You do not know of any such case. Neither did the popes. If this is your theoretical position, I don't have a problem with it. Since it refers to an invisible case. Invisible cases are not defacto exceptions to the dogma in the present times.My 'theoretical' position would be that the baptism of water must follow. This would be the teaching of the dogma on salvation and Vatican Council II (AG 7).
To assume that the baptism of desire and blood refer to known cases who are saved without the baptism of water is irrational.Since you do not know any such case.
Steven:
No it's not. We know who is saved by Baptism of Blood and I have written in my books how it doesn't contradict Pope Eugene IV.
Lionel:
We can assume that someone saved as a martyr has been saved without the baptism of water but we do not really know. The saints Including St.Francis Xavier tell us that God has sent people back to earth only to be baptised with water.They then died and went back to God.
How what is unknown be relevant or an exception to the traditional dogmatic teaching on salvation?
Steven:
The Traditional dogmatic teaching on salvation is that God can save a person without Water in extraordinary cases,
Lionel:
The text of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus defined by three Church Councils does not state this. Neither do the popes and saints.
Steven:
and you reject that universal and ordinary teaching of the Church.
Lionel:
It is only the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which implies that defacto, in the external forum, visible to us, God is saving or has saved a person without the baptism of water. This is a new doctrine and irrational one.
If someone is saved without the baptism of water as a possibility known only to God, why mention it here if it is not defacto, in the external forum and invsible for us on earth.
Lionel:
Every body needs the baptism of water according to the dogma do you know someone in 2014 who is an exception? Precept or means?
Steven:
Everybody does need baptism, but it's not absolutely necessary in every case for salvation.
Lionel:
Every one needs the baptism of water for salvation, defacto, in the external forum,in 2014. It is absolutely necessary in every case. Would you know of an exception this year in the USA ,for example ?
Steven:
You can't seem to understand the different nuances. Do you reject that God can save a person without water despite that many popes have officially taught that God can save without water?
Lionel:
God has chosen,.This is His Will.All must have faith and baptism for salvation in the Catholic Church for salvation. This is the teaching of the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church. I am only repeating it.
Neither have the popes mentioned having seen any one in Heaven, who is there without the baptism of water and Catholic Faith. So there are no known exceptions to the traditional teaching of the dogma and Vatican Council II.
-Lionel Andrades
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