Sunday, November 30, 2014

Proclamation


When I say all non Catholics need to enter the Catholic Church and there are no exceptions in 2014 I am affirming the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church before and after Vatican Council II.This is a de fide teaching of the Church which comes from Jesus' words(John 3: 5, MK.16:16). It is repeated in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7).
It is contradicted in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 when it was inferred that the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are visible to us and so are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
This error is repeated in the interpretation of Vatican Council II when it is mistakenly assumed that Lumen Gentium 16 ( invincible ignorance) is an exception to the traditional 'rigorist' interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney ( See Wikipedia- extra ecclesiam nulla salus / Fr.Leonard Feeney).Though the actual text of Vatican Council II does not make this factual error.However this is the common inference used.
Since I do not make this objective error I can proclaim the Catholic Faith like the saints and popes before Vatican Council II and - be in agreement with Vatican Council II, which is made much of by the leftist lobby using the irrational premise, the visible-dead theory.
So for me all Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Protestants and Orthodox Christians need to enter the Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell since there is nothing in Vatican Council II to contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was known over centuries. Also Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14 in orthodox passages of the Council, affirm the dogma as interpreted by the Church Councils, saints,Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St. Benedict Center ( mentioned in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949).
So the leaders of the 'great religions' were on the way to Hell without Catholic faith and the baptism of water. According to my Catholic beliefs, the leaders of Islam for example, did not have 'faith and baptism'(AG 7). Also they knew about the Catholic Church but did not enter and so are lost (Lumen Gentium 14).
Similarly the Jewish leaders of today are informed and educated. They will be lost to the fires of Hell ('the devouring fire' mentioned by the Jewish Prophet Isaiah) unless they convert into the Church.
So when I proclaim that any particular leader of a religion is on the way to Hell, or is already there,
I base this observation on the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church and Vatican Council II inspired by the Holy  Spirit. It is not a personal opinion independent from the Catholic Church. For me it is thinking with the Church, it is being in step with the Church, which does not change its doctrines. This has been the teaching of the magisterium in magisterial texts.
How individual popes and cardinals interpret it may not be the same as me.They differ amongst themselves.However I can cite references for my views in Vatican Council II and traditional documents. I also do not interpret Vatican Council II with an irrational inference as do the popes, cardinals, bishops etc.
-Lionel Andrades

Is it logical to say that all salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II is an exception to the Syllabus of Errors? It is irrational for me

Lynda
CraigV, You aren’t the first person to explain this to Mr Andradas, and I doubt you’ll be the last, given his extraordinary tenacity in stating and restating his not very logical (at least not logically expressed) thesis on Catholic blogs!

Lionel:
What is my logical thesis ?
Dogmas and doctrines do not change for you. Then how can the dogma EENS change and be acceptable to you. I do not expect an answer. I have asked you this quite a few times.
Is it logical to say that there are known exceptions to EENS?
Is it logical to say that all salvation mentioned in Vatican Council II is an exception to the Syllabus of Errors?
It is irrational for me and logical for you. So you criticize Vatican Council II.
_____________________________

Lynda

Mr Andrades, you sure know how to persevere, but it’s probably time to take a break from it, at least on this blog. God bless you.
Lionel:
I have to persevere since informed Catholics, who know aspects of the Catholic Faith better that me, are using an irrationality in the interpretation of Vatican Council II and they do not know the source of their modernism. They consider this modernism dogmatic ,traditional etc.
Craig seems to be have an insight into this and Bertho has picked it up very well. I could almost say that he understands it well.
When they begin to write on this subject I can take a break from the blogs.
-Lionel Andrades

http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/humanum/#comments

If a soul is outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church, then it must enter Her one way or the other before death, or it’s lost

banner
For IF that soul is saved, then it was indeed Catholic before death. Not partially, but fully inside the Church. Whether we see it or not.

Criag:

Lionel,
This has been driving me nuts for a few weeks and I haven’t said anything. So against my better judgment, I’m going to go ahead and say something.
Look man, when the Church pronounces a dogma, it’s true, period. Whether or not we can scientifically measure it, see it, taste it, etc. It’s simply true.
And it is a dogmatic Truth that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Full stop. Whether we see it or not, it’s true. Before a soul leaves the body, if it’s not placed within the Catholic Church, it is not saved.
Lionel:
Agreed 100 %

Criag:

Whether or not we see it joined to the Church is irrelevant. If it is, it can be saved, if it’s not, it can’t be saved.

Lionel:
Agreed 100%
I dont have to quote you the dogma-text since we are in agreeement.

Criag:

Your whole lengthy tomes on “since we can’t see it, EENS is still true.”

Lionel:
The “since we can’t see it” comments refer to the baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance.
See the SSPX USA post on Feeneyism.
They affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and without a bat of the eye also say that the baptism of desire etc are exceptions.It makes sense for them.
Then I have to come in with…. how can the baptism of desire etc be an exception to the dogma. This is elementary, man. If there are no visible exceptions on earth, how can ‘the exception’ be an exception? It is here where I have to bring in the “since we can’t see it” reminder. It is not with EENS, as you thought. It is only when someone says there are exceptions to EENS.

And that someone happens to be the Holy Office 1949 along with the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits who were also active at Vatican Councll II. So it is a very serious thing. You have the average Catholic affirming an irrationality and heresy and believing it is a de fide teaching.EENS is a de fide teaching. Visible baptism of desire is not. Invisible for us baptism of desire is acceptable.

_______________________________

Criag:

I’m sorry man, that statement makes no sense. I’m sorry to have to finally break it to you, but it just doesn’t make any logical sense. Your posts are distracting man. Please.

Lionel:
Obviously it would not make sense.
Conversely from my point of view it does not make sense when you assume that all salvation in Heaven mentioned in Vatican Council II is a break with EENS.
For me this is irrational.
Then I have to begin explaining….LG 16 refers to a hypothetical case. Please do not consider an exception to the dogma…etc, etc.

Criag:

If a soul is outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church, then it must enter Her one way or the other before death, or it’s lost.

Lionel:
Yes and of course and this has nothing to do with EENS. Every one in 2014 needs to formally convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell.

Criag:

Can the Good Lord bring that soul in Himself in ways we can’t see in the moments before death? He sure can.

Lionel:
Sure he can in this hypothethical case.Of course he can! And for me he could also bring this person to Heaven with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
And of course this person is only a theoretical case, a possibility known only to God. So he will not be an exception to the traditional interpretation of the dogma according to the Church Councils.
Since if you infer this is an exception or relevant to the dogma….(you know the rest!).
_____________________________________

Criag:

Whether or not we see it is irrelevant.

Lionel:
Relevant to what ?
Are you saying it is not relevant to the interpretation of EENS according to Fr.Leonard Feeney, the popes and saints?
Is it relevant to Vatican Council II ? Does Vatican Council II contradict St.Robert Bellarmine’s understanding of EENS? Or St.Maximillian Kolbe?
______________________________

Criag:

It remains a theoretical possibility…and one that doesn’t touch upon EENS.


Lionel:
Agreed 100%
Would you say the SSPX is wrong here ? A theoretical possibility ( baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance) is considered a defacto exception to the dogma EENS.The SSPX USA is following the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
_______________________________________

Criag:

For IF that soul is saved, then it was indeed Catholic before death. Not partially, but fully inside the Church. Whether we see it or not.

Lionel:
Yes. And being a theoretical possibility, it is not, as you say, relevant to EENS.
Also after death, there are cases of persons who return to life only to be baptized and they return to the supernatural life. This is the experience of Catholic saints including St. Francis Xavier.
So all who are in Heaven are Catholics. There are only Catholics in Heaven.
___________________________________

Criag:

Maybe Our Lord saves a lot this way, maybe none. We can’t know this side or the Pearly Gates.

Lionel:
Yes it is irrelevant to EENS.
_____________________________________

Criag:

We simply have to work toward the objective of winning souls for Christ by bringing them into His One Holy Catholic Church…for outside of Her, there is NO salvation. Full stop

Lionel:
Agreed!
-Lionel Andrades


http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/humanum/#comments
https://leomcwatkinsfilms.com/merchandise/product/convert-bumper-sticker

Saturday, November 29, 2014

You are in the One,Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church

 


 

Salvemur
Where is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?
 We were told to ask, seek and knock.
 
 
Lionel:
You are in the One,Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. You have found it when you are aware that God has chosen salvation to be limited to the Sacraments (CCC 1257) and there are no visiblle cases of persons over the last 100 years or more, saved in invincible ignorance(LG 16), a subsist it church (LG 8), elements of sanctification and truth (LG 8), seeds of the Word etc. Once you have discovered this, you will find that Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church do not contradict the Syllabus of Errors, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the necessity of the Social Reign of Jesus Christ over all political and social legislation
-Lionel Andrades

Pope Pius XII allowed the confusion to spread



 
Barbara:
But the rest of my post still stands. Ask yourself this question: Why do we have a feast day for The Holy Innocents? They were not baptized, and they did not have the intellect to know they were dying for Jesus, nor did they have an opportunity to desire the will of God be done. Yet they were ‘saved.’
Lionel:
Yes a person can be saved with the baptism of desire etc which are not exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus for me. There can be a 100 persons saved this year with the baptism of desire etc and we would not know of them. So the baptism of desire is not an exception to the defined dogma which says all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation.
____________________________________
 
Barbara:
For those outside the Church who are in invincible ignorance, God will send an Angel, a missionary, or will Himself inspire them to know what’s necessary for salvation.
Lionel:
Yes and we would not know who this person is? So this case would not be relevant to the traditional dogmatic teaching on salvation?
 ___________________________________
 
Barbara:
This is Tradition, Dogma, and Church Teaching throughout the ages.
Lionel:The visible for us baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance is irrational and was not part of the teaching of the Catholic Church before 1949.
It is unfortunate that the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus was not mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church nor supported by the Magisterium after 1949.
Also Pope Pius XII did not affirm it in public during the Fr.Leonard Feeney case in Boston in 1949. This was about the time of the creation of the state of Israel.He could not get himself to say that all Jews in Boston need to convert into the Church to avoid Hell. He let the confusion persist in the Church.
-Lionel Andrades
 

Letter of the Holy Office 1949 error clearly carried over into Vatican Council II

The magisterium has contradicted itself in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and the error is carried over into Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14 etc).However the Council can still be read as a continuity with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
In 2014 we do not know anyone 'made known by the Church's preaching' (AG 7) 1 and who is saved.So AG 7 does not contradict the dogma here.It is a reference to a hypothetical case. One can also assume that this theoretical case was saved also with the baptism of water . Since AG 7 says all need the baptism of water for salvation.Either way it is invisible for us and so not relevant to the dogma. It would have to be visible and known to us for this case to be an explicit exception to all needing the baptism of water in the present times for salvation.If we do not know of an exception then  that 'exception' cannot be an exception.
Similarly we do not know any one in 2014 'though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary,still do not wish to enter into it or persevere'(AG 7), who has been saved or not saved. So this is not a contradiction to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. We do not know any one saved outside the visible limits of the Church i.e without 'faith and baptism'(AG 11).
 
These confusing statements which mislead many Catholics and is responsible for much of the 'spirit of Vatican Council II ' interpretations originates  from the objective error in 1949 in the Archdiocese of Boston.The Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Richard Cushing, the Jesuits there and the American theologians of that time, wrongly assumed that those who are saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance, or with the necessity of precept and means, were known and visible to us in real life. So they wrongly inferred that these explicit- for- them cases were known exceptions to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St. Benedict Center.
Since the Holy Office 1949 did not correct them and neither did Pope Pius XII announce that all Jews and other non Catholics in Boston, need to convert to be saved,the confusion spread. It was made a part of Vatican Council II. In 1965 the excommunication of Fr.Leonard Feeney was still not lifted.Even Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Michael Davis assumed that the baptism of desire referred to visible for us exceptions to the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
 
The Magisterium  in 1949  assumed that the baptism of desire was a valid exception to the dogma.So  in Vatican Council II we have the phrase 'made known by the Church's preaching' as compated to those in invincible ignorance ( who have never had the Gospel preached to them through no fault of their own). Similarly the phrase was inserted 'though aware that God..'as compared to those who were not aware and could be saved.
The Magisterium  assumed that those who are inculpably ignorant of the Gospel were known and visible to us in real life. So for Cardinal Cushing and the Jesuits these cases were explicit exceptions to the dogma. In other words there were known people to them who  could be saved without the baptism of water.Cushing and the Jesuits were active at  Vatican Council II and so AG 7 says 'can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith'.3 It was as if they knew these persons names .
 
They were active at Lumen Gentium 14 too.  Lumen Gentium 14 in its initial paragraph supports the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr. Leonard Feeney, the traditional interpretation.4 It then refers to those ' knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary' 5 as compared to those in ignorance. There is an  orthodox statement which indicates all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation. 6 It then refers to the baptism of desire as an exception to the orthodox paragraph.
 
These references to salvation (with the baptism of desire or inculpable ignorance) in LG 14 and AG 7 were inferred to be of cases who are now in Heaven but also visible to the naked eye on earth. This is the irrational theology which has come to us from 1949.
It has been  used by the International Theological Commission in two of its theological papers, Christianity and the World Religions and  The Hope of
Infants who Die  Without being Baptized. Pope Benedict XVI approved the ITC error.He  also made the same mistake as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257. This was theology gone wrong. He states ' God is not limited to the Sacraments'.In other words there is known salvation outside the Church. This known salvation contradicted the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus for him. Since the dead were visible also for him, the dogma- text was not placed in the Catechism.
-Lionel Andrades
 ___________________________________________
AD GENTES 7
1
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. -Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II.
 
2.
Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it."-Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II.
 
3.
Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him.Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II. 
LUMEN GENTIUM 14
 
4
Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church
5
Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
6
They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops.The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion.
7.
Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.
________________________________________
 








After Eight Years of Infertility, Mom Thanks God for Quadruplets

 

by Sarah Zagorski
After eight years of infertility, Ashley and Tyson Gardner found out they were pregnant with quadruplets. The Gardner’s are from Pleasant Grove, Utah, and an ultrasound showed that their babies were two sets of twin girls.
According to Dr. Alan Penzias, associate professor of obstetrics, gynecology and reproductive biology at Harvard Medical School, the odds of having two sets of twins in one pregnancy are about 1 in 70 million.
ashleygardnerCurrently, Ashley’s twins are 25-weeks fetal age and the young mother is on bed-rest. But Ashley isn’t complaining; instead she’s counting her blessings this holiday season. She wrote in an online article on the Herald Extra more about her pregnancy.
She said, “This year being on hospital bed rest as the holidays approach is no easy task. Every day my body gets more sore and tired. But it doesn’t matter anymore. These four beautiful babies we have been blessed with are all that matters.”
She continued, “This year we won’t be Christmas shopping for the best material things we can find, we won’t be opening a bunch of presents soon to be forgotten about or sifting through Black Friday ads. We will be here, in a hospital room, together as family, praying for the safe arrival of our little ones — hoping for another day or week or more in this bed to better ensure their safety.”
Ashley and Tyson have a lot to be thankful for because earlier this year doctors found that one of the sets of twins had twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. The syndrome causes the blood flow from the shared placenta of the twins to become unbalanced so that one twin does not receiving enough blood and the other receives too much. According to the Daily Herald of Utah Country, the couple flew to Los Angeles to see Dr. Raman H. Chmait, who specializes in correcting the condition. Dr. Chmait is the director of Los Angeles Fetal Therapy within the CHLA-USC Institute for Maternal-Fetal Health.
However, upon arrival doctors found another fatal problem— Ashley’s cervix had opened while on the flight. Thankfully, Dr. Chmait was able to perform a cervical cerclage which sews the cervix shut and fix the blood transfusion problem.
Ashley concluded by thanking God for the safe surgery. She said, “I’m thankful for the tender mercies of our Savior and the small things He does to let us know He is always there. We have never been so scared as we were a few weeks ago while in California getting Twin to Twin Transfusion Syndrome surgery to save our babies’ lives. We were constantly reminded at every minute that we are not alone, and He is watching over us. Thousands of comments and messages came in from all around the world with prayers for our babies. I’m thankful prayers are heard.”
Now the couple is back in Utah awaiting the arrival of their babies. Doctors have said that Ashley needs to make it to 28-weeks to give her daughters the best chance at survival; but she believes their little girls will make it well past that point.

Friday, November 28, 2014

It is the magisterium which has contradicted itself

 
Quo Vadis Petre:Indeed, Lionel, you have unfortunately fallen away from the Magisterium by bounding God to the Sacraments ONLY!! Just the mere fact that in making a Act of Perfect Contrition a dying person in mortal sin can be saved without Confession (provided he wants to go to Confession) refutes your erroneous assertion!
 
Lionel:
The dogma says all need the Sacraments for salvation, all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church. This is the magisterium.



Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7 ) says all need faith and baptism for salvation. This is a reference to the Sacraments by the magisterium.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1257) on the Neccesity of the Baptism of Water says the Church does not know of any means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water. Again it is the magisterium which says salvation is bound to the Sacraments,


It is the magisterium which has contradicted itself:-
1.CCC 1257 says God is not limited to the Sacraments.
2.The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 implies that the baptism of desire is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. In other words the baptism of desire refers to known cases in the present time on earth; they are visible on earth, the dead in Heaven are explicit on earth. Since they are visible they are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney on the dogma.


3.The International Theological Commission has criticized Fr.Leonard Feeney even though he held the traditional teaching on the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.



4.In two theological papers of the International Theological Commission approved by Pope Benedict XVI it is implied that salvation in Heaven is visible on earth and this ‘spectre’ is an explicit exception to Tradition and is the theological basis for a theology of religions and a new ecclesiology.
__________________________________________________

 
Quo Vadis Petre:
Just the mere fact that in making a Act of Perfect Contrition a dying person in mortal sin can be saved without Confession (provided he wants to go to Confession) refutes your erroneous assertion!


 
Lionel:
You are making the same mistake as ‘the magisteriuim’ of the International Theological Commission etc.
The person who is saved after making a perfect contrition is not personally known to us. He is not visible in 2014.
So this hypothetical case cannot be an explicit exception to all needing the Sacraments in 2014, de facto, for salvation.
-Lionel Andrades
http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/humanum/#comment-27366


http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/mons-lorenzo-leuzzi-is-also-promoting.html


November 27, 2014

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is basic to religious liberty and a Catholic Confessional state http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/extra-ecclesiam-nulla-salus-is-basic-to.html


November 28, 2014

The Social Reign of Jesus Christ has been made obsolete with alleged salvation outside the Catholic Church known to us  http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/the-social-reign-of-jesus-christ-has.html


November 25, 2014

The Council’s words are strong and forthright here, implicitly asserting the sovereignty of Christ over all nations, but we now seldom hear them quoted

http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/the-councils-words-are-strong-and.html

November 24, 2014

Subdued feast of Christ the King http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/subdued-feast-of-christ-king.html

____________________________________________________

Pope John Paul II also fell before the objective error in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/09/pope-john-paul-ii-also-fell-before.html


The Holy Office 1949 made a mistake. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani assumed there are known exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus-Cantarella, CathInfo forum http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/the-holy-office-1949-made-mistake.html


 

The Social Reign of Jesus Christ has been made obsolete with alleged salvation outside the Catholic Church known to us

From Speray' s Catholicism in a Nutshell
Steve Speray:
Meanwhile, I’ll be waiting for you to show that teaching by the Church that states “for salvation, all need to be a member of the Church in the external forum.”
Lionel:
1.
See the part underlined. It indicates all need to enter the Catholic Church formally, in the external forum, with visible baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
“Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it:
  • “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
  • “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
  • “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
 
2.
Here Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II indicates that all need to be an objective member of the Catholic Church with 'faith and baptism' for salvation..
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. -Ad Gentes 7.
_________________________________________________
Steve Speray:
No need for me to comment further. I stand by my position, with the Church’s teaching backing me up.
 
Lionel:
There are so many questions and points which have not been answered.What do you mean by the Church's teaching backing me up?' and could ' the Church' have made an objective mistake in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 ?
1.For me Lionel there are no contradictions in Vatican Council II. Since LG 16,LG 8, UR 3 etc refer to cases not to cases who are not visible to us on earth so they are irrelevant to the dogma. They contradict the dogma for you? Does Vatican Council II contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
2.When I affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus I am saying that all non Catholics in 2014 need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell. So this can be a basis for affirming the Doctrine on the Social Reign of Christ the King over all political legislation?
3.There is no case known of someone saved without the baptism of water in 2014. You do not know of any one saved outside the Church. You do not know of any one who will be saved this year without the baptism of water and so will be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.? Is this how you understand the baptism of desire?
4.The baptism of desire is always hypothetical for us.This is a fact of life.We cannot give someone the baptism of desire as a priest can give a person the baptism of water ?
5.Baptism of desire and necessity of means and precepts must not be referred to with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus since they are hypothetical, theoretical concepts only. They are known and relevant only to God. It has nothing to do with the dogma for us human beings  ?
6.Whoever is saved with the baptism of desire, or according to the necessity of means or precepts, is known only to God these cases are theoretical,hypothetical and invisible for us ?
7.A non Catholic cannot say that he is going to convert with the baptism of desire and so would not need the baptism of water. Neither can he say that he will be a martyr and so will be saved without the baptism of water?
8.Vatican Council II does not contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So the traditional teaching on other religions and Christian communities has not changed ?
9.The traditionalists and sedevacantists like the popes use an irrational inference in the interpretation of Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. So the Council appears as a break with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
10.So for the popes and all Catholics, there is salvation outside the Church which contradicts the traditional teaching on other religions and the 'old' exclusive ecclesiology.The Social Reign of Jesus Christ has been made obsolete with alleged salvation outside the Catholic Church known to us ?
-Lionel Andrades
 
 

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is basic to religious liberty and a Catholic Confessional state http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/11/extra-ecclesiam-nulla-salus-is-basic-to.html

 
 
 
 
 
 

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CONVEGNO SU
“LA CRISI DELLA FAMIGLIA E IL CASO DEI FRANCESCANI DELL’IMMACOLATA:
UNA LETTURA A PIU’ VOCI ALLA LUCE DEI RECENTI AVVENIMENTI ”
Roma, sabato 13 dicembre 2014, ore 16,00
Complesso Monumentale di Santo Spirito in Sassia
Sala Alessandrina
(ingresso da Lungotevere in Sassia, 3 – rampa di fianco all’Ospedale di Santo Spirito)


IL COMITATO DELL’IMMACOLATA
organizza
CONVEGNO SU
“LA CRISI DELLA FAMIGLIA E IL CASO DEI FRANCESCANI DELL’IMMACOLATA:
UNA LETTURA A PIU’ VOCI ALLA LUCE DEI RECENTI AVVENIMENTI ”
Roma, sabato 13 dicembre 2014, ore 16,00
Complesso Monumentale di Santo Spirito in Sassia
Sala Alessandrina
(ingresso da Lungotevere in Sassia, 3 – rampa di fianco all’Ospedale di Santo Spirito)

Roma, 13 dicembre 2014 - Il Comitato dell’Immacolata, prosegue con le iniziative in favore dei Fondatori dei Francescani dell’Immacolata, padre Stefano Maria Manelli e padre Gabriele Maria Pellettieri.
La Sala Alessandrina del Complesso Monumentale Santo Spirito in Sassia ospiterà il convegno, tenuto da laici, sulla tematica della crisi della famiglia nel contesto del Sinodo dei Vescovi e del caso dei Francescani dell’Immacolata.
I lavori avranno inizio alle ore 16,00 e si svolgeranno in un’unica sessione.
“Il tema del convegno è “La crisi della famiglia e il caso dei Francescani dell’Immacolata: una lettura a più voci alla luce dei recenti avvenimenti”.
Potrebbe meravigliare un convegno con questo titolo in cui si compara la crisi della famiglia con il caso dei Francescani dell’Immacolata, invece non deve sorprenderci perché sia la famiglia umana, sia la famiglia religiosa sono oggetto di un attacco che si sostanzia nel tentativo di sgretolare i fondamenti costitutivi del loro esistere.
L’aggressione ai capisaldi della famiglia umana e religiosa non comincia da oggi. Già da tempo si è avviato un processo finalizzato alla loro destabilizzazione. L’amore coniugale, che ha come fondamento la stabilità, è stato progressivamente eroso, per essere sostituito da ciò che viene definito amore liquido; un amore intercambiabile, che non dura per sempre perché collegato alla fragilità dei capricci umani. La complementarietà dell’identità sessuata è tre volte sconfessata; è negata sia nella relazione di coppia, sia nella ricaduta sull’educazione dei figli, sia in quanto funzionale per un corretto sviluppo dell’identità e percezione di sé, contrariamente a quanto dimostra la psicologia dell’età evolutiva.” (tratto dalla Premessa di Claudio Circelli).
Modererà il Dott. Claudio Circelli, il quale introdurrà con il tema “La crisi della famiglia e il caso dei Francescani dell’Immacolata. Quali legami?”.
Seguiranno gli interventi di:
Corrado Gnerre
“Le radici filosofiche dell’attacco alla famiglia e le loro conseguenze nella vita religiosa”
Carlo Manetti
“Le radici storiche dell’attacco alla famiglia”
Guido Vignelli
“La famiglia, piccolo Stato e Chiesa domestica. Premesse culturali e religiose per la sua difesa politica”
Elisabetta Frezza
“La verità della famiglia incatenata nelle parole contraffatte”
Piero Mainardi
“Il debole paradigma cattolico di oggi”
Tutte le relazioni finali degli interventi sono state raccolte nel volume “LA CRISI DELLA FAMIGLIA E IL CASO DEI FRANCESCANI DELL’IMMACOLATA: UNA LETTURA A PIU’ VOCI ALLA LUCE DEI RECENTI AVVENIMENTI ” – a cura del comitato dell’Immacolata, che verrà donato ai partecipanti al termine dei lavori.
 
Corrado Gnerre da tempo scrive testi di Apologetica Cattolica. Collabora su riviste come Radici Cristiane e Il Settimanale di Padre Pio. Ha fondato Il Cammino dei Tre Sentieri. Per sua stessa ammissione il professore Gnerre si sente molto vicino alla spiritualità dei Francescani dell'Immacolata e in particolar modo alla persona di padre Stefano Manelli. Ed è per questo che ha accettato volentieri l'invito ad essere qui tra noi.
 
Carlo Manetti si laurea in Giurisprudenza presso l’Università degli Studi di Torino.
È sposato con Cristina Siccardi ed ha due figli, Stefano ed Elena.
Tiene, in varie città italiane, conferenze su temi riguardanti le Relazioni internazionali, le Culture dei popoli, le Religioni e, più in generale, il Pensiero. Insegna «Relazioni internazionali» all’Università della Terza Età di Torino e «Riverberi della Storia» all’Università della Terza Età di Collegno (TO).
È medaglia d’oro dell’Accademia del Fiorino di Prato (Fi), vincitore del Premio «Catania ed il suo vulcano» dell’Accademia Ferdinandea Scienze – Lettere – Arti di Catania, membro d’onore della Società Storica Catanese, membro dell’Accademia Costantiniana di Lettere, Arti e Scienze di Palermo, socio del Centro Culturale Amici del Timone di Rivarolo Canavese ed iscritto ad Io amo l’Italia.
 
Guido Vignelli, allievo di Augusto Del Noce, è studioso etica, filosofia politica e scienza delle comunicazioni. Nel 1982 è stato tra i soci fondatori del Centro Culturale Lepanto e nel 1987 dell’associazione Famiglia Domani. Dal 1993 al 2013 ha diretto il Progetto SOS Ragazzi. Dal 2001 al 2006 è stato membro della Commissione di Studio sulla Famiglia istituita dalla Vicepresidenza del Consiglio dei Ministri. Nel 2004 ha contribuito a fondare la rivista mensile Radici Cristiane, della quale è stato redattore per i primi due anni. Attualmente collabora con la Commissione Parlamentare Bicamerale per l’Infanzia e l’Adolescenza, con le associazioni Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà (Parigi-Roma) e Fraternità Cattolica - Fondazione Il Giglio (Napoli), con i siti internet Riscossa Cristiana e Totus Tuus -Pagine Cattoliche (Milano) e con riviste come Il Timone (Milano),Fides Catholica (Firenze) e Il Settimanale di Padre Pio (Frigento). Cura una rubrica mensile nella Radio Kolbe e nella Radio Buon Consiglio.
 
Elisabetta Frezza è Laureata in Giurisprudenza nell'università degli Studi di Padova ed è dottore di ricerca in diritto processuale civile. Moglie e madre di famiglia. Scrive su Riscossa Cristiana e Effedieffe.
Piero Mainardi vive a Livorno. È laureato in Lettere moderne, con una tesi su Jacques Maritain e il dibattito sulla Cristianità nel cattolicesimo italiano, premiata a Milano nel 1997 con il Premio "Amici dell'Opera del Duomo". Studioso del pensiero cattolico, membro dell'Associazione Cristo Re impegnata nella diffusione e nella valorizzazione della Liturgia antica, collabora con Il Corriere del Sud. E’ autore del volume “L’amore di Dio, dal Sacro Cuore alla Divina Misericordia” con prefazione del card. Raymond Leo Burke, D’Ettori Editore.

Claudio Circelli è laureato in sociologia, tre specializzazioni post-lauream, l’ultima in psicologia penitenziaria. Padre di tre figli; è insegnante di scuola elementare nelle Istituzioni carcerarie.