James:
1. If what you say is true of the Sisters, they (and you) are not in agreement with the Magisterium which has , in fact, excluded the Feeney error as authentic teaching.
Lionel:
The Magisterium has supported Feeneyism in Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Wake up! So many times I have repeated it on this blog including my last discussion with you.
James:
2. No wonder these particular Sisters they are being investigated as contradicting the teaching on salvation of an Ecumenical Council and previous Roman Pontiffs.
Lionel:
They hold the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church on salvation and it is in agreement with Feeneyism in Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church ( 1257, 845,846).
James:
3.Again, you muddle discussion with your word game about “exception”. Catholic teaching is that Non-Catholics and non-Christians can (not will) be saved, but that is no exception to the axiom “Nullus salus extra Ecclesiam” since the graces necessary for salvation they receive places them in an invisible manner within the Church. As some would say, they have a Catholic passport to arrive in heaven.
Lionel:
It is extra ecclesiam nulla salus and it is a centuries old teaching which has not changed in the Catholic Church.
James:
James:
3. The Feeney error was based on the false premise that there was no “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood” rendering sincere non-Catholics capable of salvation. Most theologians before Vatican II overwhelmingly accepted the
Vatican decision in the Feeney case that distinguished attachment to the Church in reality (re) BY FORMAL MEMBERSHIP- and by desire (voto).
Lionel:
The Franciscan Sisters of the Immaculate can accept the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church, Feeneyism, along with implicit for us baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance. This was traditional. This is what I believe.
Whatever is your concept of the 'Feeney error', the bottom line is that the baptism of desire is not explicit for us and so is irrelevant to the dogma on salvation and Feeneyism.
Every one needs to be a formal member of the Catholic Church for salvation in 2014 and you have agreed that we do not know any exception to this Church teaching.
You personally do not know any one saved in invincible ignorance etc . You cannot see them in Heaven or earth this year.
James:
It made clear that one who belongs by desire, even if only implicitly, is sufficiently WITHIN THE CHURCH to arrive at salvation.
Lionel:
Yes.
And it was not made clear that this was just a hypothetical case and had no bearing on Feeneyism.
James:
Vatican II only made that clearer and did not mitigate the traditional teaching of theologians that there was need for all to be saved WITHIN THE CHURCH.
Lionel:
Vatican Council II was pure Feeneyism when it stated that all need faith and baptism for salvation( Ad Genets 7). AG 7 has been placed in the Catechism under the tite Outside the Church No Salvation.
James:
4. And Vatican II also made it clear that by Church, it meant the Church in full communion with the Successor of Peter.
Lionel:
Yes of course.
James:
5. I repeat that your understanding of “Nullus salus extra ecclesiam” contradicts that of the existing Catholic Church, and is not Catholic.
Lionel:
It is extra ecclesiam nulla salus and I have quoted you Vatican Council II and the Catechism. I have affirmed the dogma and also implcit for us baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance. This is what the existing Catholic Church teaches and it is Catholic since it is also in agreement with Tradition.
I reject what is non traditional, heretical and irrational and which is being passed of as the teachings of the Catholic Church since the 1940's.
-Lionel Andrades
September 5, 2014
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