David Schütz:
We will talk more about this when we come to discuss the relationship of other religions to the Church. But for the moment, an essential question in regard to the doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church is “what and where is the Church?”. So long as the Church was completely and solely identified with the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, there could be little doubt as to the salvation (or, rather, not) of non-Catholics.
Lionel:
'So long as the Church was completely and solely identified with the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome, there could be little doubt as to the salvation (or, rather, not) of non-Catholics.' Agreed 'there could be little doubt as to the salvation (or, rather, not) of non-Catholics', this was the teaching also of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
David Schütz:
When Pope Boniface VIII issued his bull “Unam Sanctam” he had added that “to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is altogether necessary for salvation.” Yet in the 1992 Catechism we find no such statement.
Lionel:
It is indicated in Ad Gentes 7 which says all need 'faith and Baptism'(AG 7) for salvation.Ad Gentes 7 is Feeneyite.
David Schütz:
Here we find a crucial change in ecclesiology which emerged from Vatican II. Speaking of the documents of Vatican II, Pope John Paul II, in his 1995 encyclical Ut Unum Sint, said:
These are extremely important texts for ecumenism. It is not that beyond the boundaries of the Catholic community there is an ecclesial vacuum. Many elements of great value (eximia), which in the Catholic Church are part of the fullness of the means of salvation and of the gifts of grace which make up the Church, are also found in the other Christian Communities.
Lionel:
Elements of great value are also found in the other Christian Communities as a possibility known to God.De facto there are no concrete cases. We cannot name any one as such who will be saved without being a formal member of the Catholic Church. Here there is a mix up by Schutz on what is accepted in theory and in reality, subjective and objective.
David Schütz:
In essence, Vatican II presents an ecclesiology and missiology of “communion”,envisaged in a series of concentric circles of relatedness, in the following order:
Lionel:
No it does not, since Schutz still has to show us where does Vatican Council II contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Where is there known salvation outside the Church? If there is no known salvation outside the Church then there is no change in ecclesiology.
David Schütz:
- The Catholic Church comprising of those local churches in direct and visible communion with the Bishop of Rome, in which “that unity which Christ bestowed on His Church from the beginning … subsists … as something she can never lose”4. (We will come back to this word “subsists” later.)
- Lionel:
- This does not contradict the traditional understanding of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
- David Schütz:
- Those Churches, predominately Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, which “although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments and above all, by apostolic succession, the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are linked with us in closest intimacy”(Dominus Iesus calls these Churches “true particular churches”).
- Lionel:
- And their members still need to convert into the Catholic Church since they do not have Catholic Faith ( Ad Gentes 7)
- David Schütz:
- Those “ecclesial communities” (chiefly the Reformation and more recent Christian communities of the West) which, due to loss of apostolic succession, do not have a valid priesthood or a valid eucharist and are thus “not Churches in the proper sense”.
- Lionel:
- Their members need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation since they do not have Catholic Faith (AG 7)
- David Schütz:
- Despite this negative judgement of the ecclesial nature of Protestant communities, it is worth quoting at length what Vatican II had to say of the existence within these communities of the true means of saving grace:
Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
Lionel:
'significant elements and endowments' is a possibility but it is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
David Schütz:
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
Lionel:
As a possibility in rare cases and known only to God . In general their members need to formally enter the Church for salvation (AG 7,LG 14).
David Schütz:
It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
Lionel:
In general they all need to convert into the Church for salvation and if there is someone saved in another religion, if it is the action of the Holy Spirit, it would be unknown to us and known only to God. So it would not be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
David Schütz:
We will go on in a moment to consider the place of the other religions in this “concentric circle” of relatedness, but for the moment, we must acknowledge that the Council Fathers saw their commitment to Christian unity on the basis of God’s primary gift of communion in common faith in Christ and in the sacrament of baptism.
Lionel:
Communion, with an ecumenism of return, since there are no known exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus mentioned in Vatican Council II.Every one needs to enter the Church for salvation (AG 7)
David Schütz:
Unitatis Redintegratiostated clearly and unambiguously that “[all] men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect”, and that“it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”
Lionel:
It does not state that they are in full communion with the Church and will be saved in general.Those who are in 'imperfect communion with the Church' and who are saved are unknown to us, they are not visible to us .So they cannot be explicit exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus as Schutz infers.
David Schütz:
This remarkable statement also implies that wherever there is valid baptism and true faith, there is also justification, and thus salvation, even outside the visible boundaries of full communion with the Catholic Church.(p.5)
Lionel:
Yes and this person would be a Catholic before going to Heaven.
So we have Ad Gentes 7 saying all need faith and baptism for salvation, objectively every one needs to enter the Church to avoid Hell and we do not know of any exceptions in real life .So those saved in 'imperfect communion with the Church' (UR 3) etc are not exceptions.They cannot be seen by us in real life.There is no known salvation outside the Catholic Church mention in Vatican Council II-Lionel Andrades
http://www.cam.org.au/eic/images/stories/documents/SalvationoutsidetheChurch-URandNAatVatII_000.doc.
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