Thursday, September 25, 2014

Second Vatican Council II did not 'develop' extra ecclesiam nulla salus it affirmed the Feeneyite position

David Schütz:
The Second Vatican Council produced two landmark documents on the relationship of the Catholic Church to those outside her communion: Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism) andNostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions).
Lionel:
None of the two documents state that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism.
David Schütz:
Without doubt, the Second Vatican Council developed a more nuanced way in which this dogma was to be interpreted. The two documents, Unitatis Redintegratio and Nostra Aetate,together with the Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) and the Declaration on Religious Freedom (Dignitatis Humanae), were principally responsible for this change.
Lionel:
I repeat none of them state that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or to Ad Gentes 7 which says all need faith and baptism.
David Schütz:
By quoting the Council document Lumen Gentium, the Catechism assures us that the dogma still stands, but significantly nuanced:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it [LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5].
Lionel:
It is not nuanced unless you assume that those who ' know' and yet do not enter and are damned and those who are in ignorance and are saved, are visible to us  in 2014.If they are not visible in the flesh cases then this passage does not contradict the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus,on 'the necessity of faith and Baptism'. Vatican Council II is Feeneyite here (LG 14).
David Schütz:
That final sentence is, of course, the clincher, but it is important that we appreciate what the Council declared in Lumen Gentium.
Lionel:
The final sentence Schutz he is referring to is 'Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it [LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5].' If Vatican Council II infers that the exceptions are visible to us and so all do not need to enter the Church formally but only those who know, then the Council would have made an objective mistake.The text though does not directly state this. It has to be inferred wrongly.
One can still interpret it as referring to hypothetical cases, known only to God.
 David Schütz:
It affirmed:
  • That Christ is unique and the only mediator and way of salvation
  • That the Church is necessary for salvation (Lionel:Yes ,formal entry into the Church is necessary for salvation)
  • That faith and baptism are both necessary for salvation (Lionel: Here is the dogma affirmed with no 'developments')
  • That these three statements are connected because the Church is the Body of Christ, and baptism is the means of entry into the Church.
David Schütz:
Nevertheless, rather than consigning all those outside the Church to wholesale damnation, the Council Fathers declared that only those who are aware of the necessity of the Church yet still refuse to enter or remain in it “could not be saved”.
Lionel:
'Those who are aware of the necessity of the Church and yet still refuse to enter or remain in it ' are hypothetical cases in 2014 . They are not known to us personally.So they are not relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They are not exceptions to all needing 'faith and Baptism'(AG 7) for salvation in 2014. If Schutz considers them exceptions then he is inferring that these cases now in Heaven are personally visible to us on earth- for them to be exceptions. The dead are exceptions!
David Schütz:
The Catechism attempts to “reformulate positively” the teaching extra ecclesiam, saying that “it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC §846). This essentially is the message of the Declaration Dominus Iesus (2000) as well.
Lionel:
That all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body does not in anyway contradict extra eccleesiam nulla salus which says all need to be formal members of the Church.It does not contradict the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma.
David Schütz:
The Catechism also includes the following statement from Lumen Gentium:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation [LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872].
Lionel :
He inferr that these persons saved,'those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church' (LG 16) refer to seen in the flesh cases.So they are exceptions in 2014 to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus for him. So here there is a development of doctrine for him.
So his development of doctrine is based on an irrationality.We cannot see the dead on earth saved in invincible ignorance in 2014. So LG 16 does not contradict the Feeneyite interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.-Lionel Andrades
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How did Vatican II develop the teaching “No Salvation outside the Church”?

Presentation by David Schütz

Given at Thomas More Spring School,
“40 years of Vatican II”
Axedale November 27
The Second Vatican Council produced two landmark documents on the relationship of the Catholic Church to those outside her communion: Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism) and Nostra Aetate (Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions).... 
Without doubt, the Second Vatican Council developed a more nuanced way in which this dogma was to be interpreted. The two documents, Unitatis Redintegratio and Nostra Aetate together with the Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) and the Declaration on Religious Freedom (Dignitatis Humanae), were principally responsible for this change...
By quoting the Council document Lumen Gentium, the Catechism assures us that the dogma still stands, but significantly nuanced:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church, which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it [LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5].

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