Christopher
How does one belong to a ‘religion’ outside the Catholic Church if the individual renounces it and embraces Catholicism?
Lionel:
The issue is: is Vatican Council II contradicting the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
If someone belongs to a ‘religion’ outside the Catholic Church and is saved or if he embraces Catholicism and is saved this still is a hypothetical case. A hypothetical case is not an exception to the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr.Leonard Feeney.
All references to salvation in Vatican Council II are hypothetical.
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Lionel:
‘I would like to say that Vatican Council II is traditional on the issue of other religions and Christian communities when’
Christopher:
It guarantees false religions as a ‘right’, that is not Traditional.
Lionel:
The reference was to other religions and Christian communities. Does Vatican Council II say that those who are saved in other religions are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus? No. One can infer that they are exceptions but this would be a personal inference and it would be irrational. Since we cannot see the dead do they cannot be exceptions.
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Lionel:
’1) We do not assume that those who are in Heaven are exceptions on earth to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.’
Christopher:
Nor do you have any authority to assert all who die outside the Church are damned, unless you actually claim the authority of God.
Lionel:
All who die outside the Church are on the way to Hell. This is the teaching of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7)
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Lionel:
‘In this context I refer to the Baptism of Desire. Whether a person can be saved or not with the Baptism of Desire is another theological issue.’
Christopher:
And Theologians have argued that Baptism of Desire is a possibility.
Lionel:
If the Baptism of Desire leads to salvation without the baptism of water or with the baptism of water, the theologians must agree that we cannot name any single such case in 2014. So we do not have an explicit exception to the traditional interpretation of the dogma on exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.Vatican Council II also does not say there are explicit cases.
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Lionel:
‘I keep the text of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus before me. It says all need to be formal members of the Catholic Church for salvation i.e all need Catholic Faith and the Baptism of water for salvation.’
Christopher:
Heresy: Feeyenism. Holy Office 1949 condemned it, see St. Thomas Aquinas as a rebuttal of Feeyenism’s notion that Baptism of Desire is inadequate. (Apocalypse 7:14)
Lionel:
If any one, even if he is a cardinal or a pope, says that we can see the dead on earth who are now also in Heaven and these deceased are visible in the flesh to him, are also explicit exceptions to all needing the baptism of water in the Catholic Church in 2014, then, this person, is factually wrong. The Holy Office 1949 made an objective mistake in the Fr.Leonard Feeney case. There are defacto no exceptions to all needing the baptism of water for salvation.
The same objective error is being made in the interpretation of Vatican Council II.(LG 16 (saved in invincible ignorance) is considered an exception to AG 7 (all need faith and baptism for salvation).
Secondly, St.Thomas Aquinas supported Feeneyism. The man in the forest who is in ignorance is not an exception to the dogma which St.Thomas Aquinas upheld. St. Thomas said that God would send a preacher to teach and baptise him. So every one who is in Heaven, for St.Thomas Aquionas, is there with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith.
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Lionel:
‘So if you say someone could be saved with the Baptism of Desire or if you say that someone could not be saved without the Baptism of Desire, either way, it is irrelevant to the dogma on salvation.’
Christopher:
You’re the only one bringing it up.
Lionel:
I am aware that Vatican Council II can be interpreted with Feeneyism or Cushingism, without the irrational premise( dead are visible) or with the irrational premise.I choose the rational interpretation.
Similarly the SSPX can affirm Vatican Council II without the irrational premise. They would also be in harmony with Tradition, the dogma on salvation, the Syllabus of Errors, the Catechism of Pope Pius X etc.They could have it both ways. Vatican Council II and Tradition. Baptism of Desire and extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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Lionel:
‘Since this case is not visible to us in 2014, since this person is in Heaven, this hypothetical person cannot be an explicit exception to all needing the Baptism of Water in the Catholic Church to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.’
Christopher:
And of the Good Thief?
Lionel:
If there is someone saved without the baptism of water(Good Thief?) he would not be known to us in 2014. I cannot meet someone on the streets who has been saved as such or is going to be saved as such. So it is irrelevant to the dogmatic teaching.
Implicit for us baptism of desire, invisible for us baptism of desire is compatible with the ‘rigorist interpretation’ of Fr.Leonard Feeney and the St.Benedict Centers ,mentioned (criticized) in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
Christopher:
No one knows if he was baptised, and infact, given his repentance on the cross would logically lead to a last minute repentance which would rule against the potentiality of the good thief obtaining Baptism. The whole issue of the Baptism of Desire has not been decreed by the Church, nor has St. Thomas Aquinas’s notions of Baptism of Desire been condemned by the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas was very well aware of the Council of Trent..
Lionel:
Baptism of Desire is always theoretical and implicit for us. So it was never mentioned by the Church Councils as an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.It was Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits in Bosto, who came up with this new theory of a visible baptism of desire which was an exception to the traditional interpretation of the dogma.
Cushingism is irrational, non traditional and heretical.
-Lionel Andrades
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