Friday, August 29, 2014

Vatican Council II without the irrational premise is not in agreement with a Catechism which states God is not limited to the Sacraments

Vatican Council II no where says God is not limited to the Sacraments. One has to infer it, wrongly!
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Fr.Martin Fox says :
No, Cardinal Ratzinger did not make a mistake.
If you follow the link, you will see the mistake identified as the Catechism's statement: "God is not limited to the Sacraments." And Catholicmission asks, "Why did Ratzinger say this?
He said it because it's true.
Lionel:
The dogma defined three times by three Church Councils says all need to enter the Church for salvation. This is corroborated by Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) and this was the traditional teachiing of the Catholic Church until the time of St.Maximillian Kolbe. We can see it in his writings.
So why does the Catechism says 'God is not limited to the Sacraments' ?
There is no visible exception in 2014. Neither does any Church document before 1949 state that the baptism of desire is not implicit, subjective and invisible but explicit, objective and visible.
So why did Cardinal Ratzinger make this objective error? We cannot see the dead and no tradtional text before 1949 infers this.
Fr.Martin Fox:
Did Aquinas make a mistake when he said the same? Did Augustine?
Lionel:
Aquinas and Augustine no where infer that the dead are visible to us.They held  the traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. They did not state that there were visible in the flesh exceptions.
The man in the forest who is saved in invincible ignorance would have a preacher sent to him said St.Thomas Aquinas. Since all who are in heaven are there with the baptism of water.
Similarly St. Augustine affirmed the traditional interpretation of the dogma, the 'Feeneyite' version. He did not claim that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma.
Similarlay I affirm the possibility of being saved with the baptism of desire etc ( followed by the baptism of water). However I will not infer that the baptism of desire  is an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Fr.Martin Fox:
It takes a lot of sand for a latter-day blogger to assert that Ratzinger, Aquinas and Augustine (not to mention many others who held the same) are all wrong, and the said blogger, alone, is right.
 
Lionel:
Any one who alleges that we humans, in general ,can see the dead is wrong. He is irrational even if he is the pope
 
Fr.Martin Fox:
And, to top it all off, Catholicmission's post blames all this on Vatican II!
 
Lionel:
False. Vatican Council II without the visible- dead- who- are- exceptions premise is traditional. I support a traditional Vatican Council II which is not a rupture with the past.There is no irrational premise used in this interpretation.
The Council text is neutral.
 Fr.Martin Fox:
A council in the 1960s caused Augustine and Aquinas both to err, across the span of centuries into the past? What won't these folks blame the Council for?
 
Lionel:
The Council is in perfect agreement with Augustine and Aquinas.It is traditional. Vatican Council II without the irrational premise is not in agreement with a Catechism which states God is not limited to the Sacraments.
Vatican Council II no where says God is not limited to the Sacraments. One has to infer it, wrongly!
-Lionel Andrades

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