Fr.Martin Fox:
In answering the question, can a man be saved without baptism, first he cites Augustine:
On the contrary, Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification.
Lionel:
Here is the actual text from the Summa of St. Thomas Aquinas (Link provided by Fr.Martin Fox).
Objection 1: It seems that not all are bound to receive Baptism. For Christ did not narrow man's road to salvation. But before Christ's coming men could be saved without Baptism: therefore also after Christ's coming.
Objection 2: Further, Baptism seems to have been instituted principally as a remedy for original sin. Now, since a man who is baptized is without original sin, it seems that he cannot transmit it to his children. Therefore it seems that the children of those who have been baptized, should not themselves be baptized.
Objection 3: Further, Baptism is given in order that a man may, through grace, be cleansed from sin. But those who are sanctified in the womb, obtain this without Baptism. Therefore they are not bound to receive Baptism.
On the contrary, It is written (Jn. 3:5): "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Again it is stated in De Eccl. Dogm. xli, that "we believe the way of salvation to be open to those only who are baptized."
I answer that, Men are bound to that without which they cannot obtain salvation. Now it is manifest that no one can obtain salvation but through Christ; wherefore the Apostle says (Rom. 5:18): "As by the offense of one unto all men unto condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men unto justification of life." But for this end is Baptism conferred on a man, that being regenerated thereby, he may be incorporated in Christ, by becoming His member: wherefore it is written (Gal. 3:27): "As many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ." Consequently it is manifest that all are bound to be baptized: and that without Baptism there is no salvation for men.
Reply to Objection 1: At no time, not even before the coming of Christ, could men be saved unless they became members of Christ: because, as it is written (Acts 4:12), "there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved." But before Christ's coming, men were incorporated in Christ by faith in His future coming: of which faith circumcision was the "seal," as the Apostle calls it (Rom. 4:11): whereas before circumcision was instituted, men were incorporated in Christ by "faith alone," as Gregory says (Moral. iv), together with the offering of sacrifices, by means of which the Fathers of old made profession of their faith. Again, since Christ's coming, men are incorporated in Christ by faith; according to Eph. 3:17: "That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts." But faith in a thing already present is manifested by a sign different from that by which it was manifested when that thing was yet in the future: just as we use other parts of the verb, to signify the present, the past, and the future. Consequently although the sacrament itself of Baptism was not always necessary for salvation, yet faith, of which Baptism is the sacrament, was always necessary.
Reply to Objection 2: As we have stated in the FS, Q[81], A[3], ad 2, those who are baptized are renewed in spirit by Baptism, while their body remains subject to the oldness of sin, according to Rom. 8:10: "The body, indeed, is dead because of sin, but the spirit liveth because of justification." Wherefore Augustine (Contra Julian. vi) proves that "not everything that is in man is baptized." Now it is manifest that in carnal generation man does not beget in respect of his soul, but in respect of his body. Consequently the children of those who are baptized are born with original sin; wherefore they need to be baptized.
Reply to Objection 3: Those who are sanctified in the womb, receive indeed grace which cleanses them from original sin, but they do not therefore receive the character, by which they are conformed to Christ. Consequently, if any were to be sanctified in the womb now, they would need to be baptized, in order to be conformed to Christ's other members by receiving the character
Fr.Martin Fox :
On the contrary, Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit."
Lionel:
What has this to do with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ? These cases are not visible to us in real life. So they cannot be relevant or an exception to the traditional teaching.All need the baptism of water for salvation.
Why have you mentioned it ? Are you inferring that these cases are physically visible to us? If you say there are exceptions you infer that they are visible to you. You know someone in 2014 saved without the baptism of water?
Fr.Martin Fox :
Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification.
Lionel:
O.K assuming he could. It still is an invisible case for us in 2014. If it is not visible it is not an exception. Like Cardinal Cushing are you inferring that this case is personally known to us, we can see this person in Heaven and on earth ? So this is an exception to all in real life needing the baptism of water for salvation ? This is a common mistake. Many Catholics are not aware of it.
Fr.Martin Fox:
Then, Thomas goes on to say:
I answer that, The sacrament or Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free-will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
Lionel:
Assuming there was such a case it would not be known to us.He would have to be someone with certain qualities, living under certain conditions.This is a hypothetical person.Similarly I could speak of a hypothetical person who meets all these conditions and also finally receives the baptism of water and is saved.Either way you cannot postulate this against the dogma which says all need to enter the Chruch with the baptism of water.
Hypothetical cases are not exceptions in 2014 to all needing the baptism of water for salvation. I cannot meet a hypothetical case on the streets. I cannot say that a friend will be saved or is already saved without the baptism of water.If I meet a non Catholic I cannot say that he will be an exception to exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.I cannot use this non existing person for me to creater a theology of religions or a new ecclesiology.
CCC 1257 infers there is known salvation outside the Church.This is irrational.Then CCC 1258,1259,1260 assumes that these hypothtical cases are known exceptions to CCC 1257 which says the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water.
It is common knowledge that we cannot see the dead who are in Heaven. CCC 1257-1260 infers that we can!
Fr.Martin Fox:
Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."
Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."
Lionel:
Yes in faith, in principle, hypothetically it is acceptable.De facto no.In real life, this is an unknown for you and me. So if you only accept this hypothetically there is no problem. If you infer that this case is personally known to us then it would be irrational.
Fr.Martin Fox:
Wait, what else did he say there?
Let's look at it (helpfully bolded):
"God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments..."
Lionel:
Agreed. God can choose to act as he wants and through the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit, God tells us how he will judge and act on the Day of Judgement. He tells us all need 'faith and baptism'(AG 7) for salvation.He is saying in Vatican Council II (AG 7) that most people are on the way to Hell since they do not have faith and baptism (AG 7). In the Gospel of Matthew Jesus tells us to enter through the narrow gate for wide is the gate which leads to Hell. People in other religions are on the way to Hell. If there is an exception it would be known only to God.It would would be a theoretical, hypothetical case for us.We cannot infer that we personally know this person who is saved.
Fr.Martin Fox:
That statement by Saint Thomas Aquinas sure sounds like:
"God is not limited to the Sacraments" by Cardinal Ratzinger...
Lionel:
If it sounds like 'God is not limited to the Sacraments' then it would contradict CCC 1257 which also indicates that God is limited to the Sacraments. CCC 1257 says that the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water. CCC 1257 would also contradict itself when it says 'God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism'.God has bound salvation to the Sacraments in 2014 and God has not bound salvation to the Sacraments ? You can't have it both ways. This would be contrary to the Principle of Non Contradiction. It would be double speak. It's also simply irrational and heretical.
Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 :The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He
also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize
them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been
proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The
Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into
eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has
received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water
and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he
himself is not bound by his sacraments.
Fr.Martin Fox:Which statement you labeled as "error."
Lionel:
1.Yes CCC 1257 mixes up the distinctiion between explicit and implicit, in real life and hypothetical, objective and subjective.
2.There are no known cases as such in 2014.It is explicit for God and implicit for us. So CCC 1257 is irrational and in error.
3. No magisterial document before 1949 makes this irrational claim.It is non traditional. Cushingism is non traditional, heretical and irrational.
Fr.Martin Fox:
Was it likewise "error" when Aquinas said it?
Lionel:
You have the quotation from St.Thomas Aquinas in which he affirmed the baptism of water for all(see above). He did not say that hypothetical cases were known, explicit, objective exceptions to the dogma on salvation. He did he say that these hypothetical cases were exceptions to his traditional interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. You have taken the liberty to infer all this ?
Fr.Martin Fox:
This too is a "yes" or "no" answer. No need to fuzz things up with a blizzard of words, as you've consistently done here.
Lionel:
Yes CCC 1257 is irrational, heretical and non traditional.
Fr.Martin Fox:
Just answer the question, yes or no: was Aquinas in error here?
Lionel:
No.However you and CCC1257 are definitely in error.
-Lionel Andrades
http://frmartinfox.blogspot.it/2014/08/combine-old-mass-and-new.html
August 30, 2014
CCC 1257 HERESY IS RELATED TO THE HOLY MASS
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