Monday, August 25, 2014

If any one is saved without the baptism of water ( with the baptism of desire etc) then God will send him back to earth to be baptized with water.

If any one is saved without the baptism of water ( with the baptism of desire etc) then God will send him back to earth to be baptized with water. This has been the experience of many saints including St.Francis Xavier.People who were dead, returned to life only to be baptized with water.
Secondly, as St.Thomas Aquinas taught, if there is a man in invincible ignorance in the forest, through no fault of his own, if he is to be saved, God will send him a preacher to instruct him and to baptize him.
In Heaven there are only Catholics.


I accept the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr.Leonard Feeney and endorse an implicit for us and visible only for God baptism of desire
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/i-accept-literal-interpretation-of.html#links
 
 
BloggerFr Ray Blake said...
CM,
God will send him back to earth to be baptised?
That is heretical


Fr.Ray Blake
God will send him back to earth to be baptised?
That is heretical.
Lionel:
Why is it heretical? If God so chooses... and the saints confirm it?
Which dogma or doctrine does it contradict?

-Lionel Andrades

 
 
 
 

9 comments:

George Brenner said...


Lionel said: " If any one is saved without the baptism of water ( with the baptism of desire etc) then God will send him back to earth to be baptized with water"

This is the type of thinking that has got you trouble in the past. Father is correct in his rebuttal. It is not for you or I to determine the methodology that God may choose for the Salvation of a soul. You are not God and cannot proclaim that He WILL send a person back to earth to be baptized although as some saints have taught this and this is certainly an option. Also there were no Catholics until about 2000 years ago.

JMJ,

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...

George,
There are only Catholics in Heaven and they are there with the baptism of water.
A person could be saved with the baptism of desire, but this would be followed with the baptism of water.
If someone is in invincible ignorance and is to be saved God will send a preacher and then have him baptised.
Anyway in the present times we do not know any person who is saved or going to be saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance.So either way, with or without the baptism of water, we do not know any exception to the baptism of water being needed in the present times.

So theoretical baptism of desire was never an exception or relevant to the literal interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
To assume that it is relevant and an exception is irrational. It is the Cushingite heresy.

Catholic Mission said...

Fr.Ray Blake has not mentioned any dogma or doctrine which I contradicted.

He only says that it is not there in Scripture.

Even the Immaculate Conception of Oour Lady they say is not there in Scripture.

At the end of the Gospel of John we are told not everything is there in Sacred Scripture.
Understandably, Scripture does not mention the baptism of desire or claim it is an exception to all needing the baptism of water.

George Brenner said...

Sorry, Lionel but you are confusing to subjects:

1. Teaching the faith that there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church and all must be Baptized in which we agree.

versus....
2. judgement by God of an individual after death to which we are not privy and you should not comment.

You should go back and re read Bread of Life by Father Feeney in which he is very clear on leaving "the mercies to God" and also The Precious Blood by Father Frederick Faber.

God is not bound by the Sacraments and it is not for you or anyone else to dictate, question or worse as you do proclaim that God would send a person back to earth to be baptized. That is for God and God alone to determine. God himself could baptize , an angel could baptize etc etc etc beyond the pale of our puny brains. Stick with the script. You have blown your whole thesis out of the water. You post every day that we cannot see the dead and yet you can see God sending a soul back to earth to be baptized. Sheer nonsense and dangerous usurping of the will of God in matters we can not see.

JMJ,

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...

1. Teaching the faith that there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church and all must be Baptized in which we agree.

Lionel:
Yes all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation and there are no exeptions. There are no known exceptions. De facto we do not know any exceptions.

The Church here is telling us that God is bound by the Sacraments.Without the baptism of water one cannot go to Heaven.


2. judgement by God of an individual after death to which we are not privy and you should not comment.

Lionel:
God will send most people to Hell since they do not have Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.
This is the teaching of the Bible (John 3:5.Mk.16:16)and the Magisterium in agreement with Tradition.
The Church here is telling us that God is bound to the Sacraments.Without the baptism of water one cannot go to Heaven.

It is not a personal judgement.

continued

Catholic Mission said...

George Brenner:
God would send a person back to earth to be baptized. That is for God and God alone to determine. God himself could baptize , an angel could baptize etc etc etc beyond the pale of our puny brains.

Lionel:
In general every one needs the baptism of water. However there could be a soul saved with the baptism of desire followed by the baptism of water.
The person dies without the baptism of water but is not sent to Hell like the others. Instead he is sent back to earth only to be baptised.This is mentioned by St.Francis Xavier and the saints.

Then suppose there is a person in invincible ignorance.He could die not knowing the Gospel through no fault of his owm. God would send a preacher to instruct him and baptize him before he goes to Heaven.This was the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas. So there are only Catholics in Heaven. They are all there with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.

George Brenner:
Stick with the script. You have blown your whole thesis out of the water. You post every day that we cannot see the dead and yet you can see God sending a soul back to earth to be baptized.

Lionel:
We cannot see the dead of course. This includes those who are saved with the baptism of water and return to receive the baptism of water.This is a hypothetical case.
Since we cannot see the dead saved with the baptism of desire or blood these cases are not explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.They are irrelevant since they are in Heaven and visible to no one in the present times.

George Brenner:
Sheer nonsense and dangerous usurping of the will of God in matters we can not see.

Lionel:
We cannot see the dead of course.So there are no exceptions to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

This is a theological point.Is the the baptism of desire followed with the baptism of water or without it ?.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says that God is not bound to the Sacraments.

In general God is bound to the Sacraments.This is the traditional de fide teaching.

When the Catechism says God is not bound to the Sacraments perhaps it refers to a hypothetical case, known only to God. This could be a person who dies without receiving the Sacraments and is sent back to earth for the baptism of water.

Similarly a person could die in invincible ignorance and God may choose to judge that person as not having to go to Hell. He could be sent back to be instructed and baptised with water.

Either way, with or without the Sacraments the person would not be alive on earth, and so would not be an exception to all needing the baptism of water to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.

George Brenner said...


Once again as you did numerous times on the No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church forum you ignore the point that I was making that no one can tell God what he will do in regards to how he handles personal judgement and Salvation.

When you make a defacto statement that..."If any one is saved without the baptism of water ( with the baptism of desire etc) then God will send him back to earth to be baptized with water" is wrong and presumptious at the minimum and much more serious if you persists in proclaiming the exact actions of God after death regarding souls. Just admit you were wrong about how God might handle the lack of Baptism through his mercy and move on.

JMJ,

George Brenner

Catholic Mission said...

George:
Once again as you did numerous times on the No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church forum you ignore the point that I was making that no one can tell God what he will do in regards to how he handles personal judgement and Salvation.

Lionel:
Look at it from another angle. You cannot tell God( you cannot judge) that God having taught for centuries that no one can go to Heaven except with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water, now makes a U-turn.

God 'handles personal judgement and salvation' and through the Catholic Church he tells us how he will judge.

Catholic Mission said...

George:
When you make a defacto statement that..."If any one is saved without the baptism of water ( with the baptism of desire etc) then God will send him back to earth to be baptized with water"

Lionel:
I am making this in the context of
1) The baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance are not visible to us and so are irrelevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

2.It is possible for a person to be saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance.This is accepted in hypothetically and not as a defacto, known reality.It can only be theoretical.It can never be objective.It is objective only to God.

3.Since the Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says God is not limited to the Sacraments, it is referring to a theoretical, hypothethical case. In the sense, God being God he can do anything.
CCC 1257 is not referring to a defacto case. If it was referring to a defacto case it would contradict itself.Since CCC 1257 also says that the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water.So this reference to God not being limited to the Sacraments is dejure and not defacto.
However then the issue is even if it is de jure( in principle, in theory, in faith) it would still contradict the dogmatic teaching in principle.
So if that line in the Catechism is not wrong, then the only way I can explain it, is as saying God will send these persons who are there without the baptism of water and who are not going to Hell- back to earth to be baptised.
At least this is what the saints experienced and this is not a personal opinion.





is wrong and presumptious at the minimum and much more serious if you persists in proclaiming the exact actions of God after death regarding souls. Just admit you were wrong about how God might handle the lack of Baptism through his mercy and move on.